To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans • Hacker News Board

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#31

Post by Borrible » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:22 AM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #21

Borrible wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The institute is also said to have started to restrict student access to terraces and rooftops Apparently, they already thought about that.

Assuming teenagers and low 20 something’s are the similar the world over, they should have restricted access to terraces and rooftops for a variety of reasons unrelated to suicide. Alcohol and heights tend not to be very close friends, and my college restricted access to the latter as much as they could (the former was a lost cause).

As a father of two in that age group, I would prefer to restrict their access especially to my precious world of perfect tranquility.

Assuming teenagers and low 20 something's are the similar the world over, which I find a bit debatable, there still is the question whether there were or are better models to cope with puberty and coming of age for the individual and society.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#32

Post by nosianu » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:23 AM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #24

laumars wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Furthermore, I’m disturbed by the cavalier attitude here. Suicide isn’t a predestined thing that we’re helpless to prevent as a society. That wasn’t the point that people were making. The point they were making is that removing fans doesn’t address the underlying mental health issues. If anything, arguing that everyone is ok now because fewer people are dying is the cavalier attitude because it overlooks the daily…

> That wasn’t the point that people were making. The point they were making is that removing fans doesn’t address the underlying mental health issues. That is a fair argument, but not how I interpreted GP. In the context it seemed like they were arguing against any measure that removes means of suicide away from people because “they’ll just do it regardless”. > If anything, arguing that everyone is ok now because few…

> that removes means of suicide

No, it's ab out removing important equipment. Fans in hot weather really help if you don't have AC, As far as I know it gets quite hot in (all of) India. Now their fans are gone as a "hack" for some other problem. At the very least, life of those students will be more uncomfortable. Ceiling fans also have a number of advantages over others, like being mostly noiseless and creating vertical movement, so replacing them with desk fans won't be as good.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#33

Post by ashtonkem » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:24 AM UTC

bscphil wrote: post #30

ashtonkem wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a common meme, but it’s wrong. For every ten people who attempt suicide and fail, only one will eventually die by suicide[0]. 70% of survivors will never even reattempt suicide, and only 7% or so of suicide survivors will eventually successfully commit suicide. Furthermore, I’m disturbed by the cavalier attitude here. Suicide isn’t a predestined thing that we’re helpless to prevent as a society. There is real…

> Suicide isn’t a predestined thing that we’re helpless to prevent as a society. There is real suffering and we can do something about it in aggregate. I agree with most of your comment but somewhat disagree with this. Suicide is not, itself, suffering. It's the result of suffering. David Foster Wallace compared suicide to jumping from a burning building; it's not that necessarily that jumping seems like a way out, i…

Yes, I intended the phrase “suffering” to encompass the causes leading to suicide as well, and clearly cut my wording a bit too short for clarity. My apologies.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#34

Post by jaimex2 » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:24 AM UTC

Melbourne, Victoria had a similar thing with its bridge. $20 million solution:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/government-to-be...

Views crossing the bridge are a nice touch now as you enter the worlds most locked down city.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#35

Post by bayesian_horse » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:25 AM UTC

Even if poor access to mental health resources is the root course, it is the right choice to make sure students survive longer to have a chance to get help.

Not enough, not even a start, but the right choice.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#36

Post by SapporoChris » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:25 AM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #3

NiceWayToDoIT wrote: post #2

Blame the fans, so what is the next thing they will remove, floors above 2nd, sharp objects, electricity? Everything else but not the cause ...

However making suicide harder, does reduce the suicide rate. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves...

It's a boondoggle. With a bonus effect of increasing deaths from extreme heat.

Now, it might seem rude of me, but I am against killing people that want to live in order to maybe save people that want to die.

edit In addition, 88 per cent of students said they did not think that “replacing ceiling fans with wall-mounted fans in all IISc hostels (would) help curb student suicide”.

I still say it's a boondoggle, the resources could be better spent elsewhere. However, this looks like a really small matter, one institute of learning a relatively small number of suicides. I'm going to relax and not worry about it. end edit

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#37

Post by baxtr » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:27 AM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #7

Thi will never cure the underlying cause of suicides, of course, but adding even slight obstacles has proven to have an effect on suicide rates. Many suicides aren't thoughtfully planned out, but are just a combination of motive and easy opportunity. Even adding something as seemingly silly as a moderately difficult to climb fence to a bridge can reduce suicide rates. This is a fine measure, assuming that it's follow…

What I am wondering: Will these obstacles reduce overall suicide rates or just local ones? Hard to measure I guess.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#38

Post by bongoman37 » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:29 AM UTC

nnain wrote: post #17

So the Indian Institute of Sciences hasn't got the memorandum on psychological counselling yet?

They tend to not be useful and there is no major concept of privacy. I taught at one of these places and had a student who going through depression. She went to the counselor and was labeled as 'crazy' because word got out that she had seen a mental health professional. She ended up eventually leaving without completing her study. Another friend went to these when he was going through severe depression and was basically told 'Life is like this only, get used to it'.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#39

Post by captainmuon » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:29 AM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #7

Thi will never cure the underlying cause of suicides, of course, but adding even slight obstacles has proven to have an effect on suicide rates. Many suicides aren't thoughtfully planned out, but are just a combination of motive and easy opportunity. Even adding something as seemingly silly as a moderately difficult to climb fence to a bridge can reduce suicide rates. This is a fine measure, assuming that it's follow…

Right, but it is really important that you follow up with psychological help.

Sometimes I wonder if suicide prevention measures like this just remove the last bit of agency that people have, and while they will live on, they will just suffer silently. Maybe suicides are not thoughtfully planned out, but they are often preceeded by a very long phase of suicidal thoughts and rumination, and sometimes fixation on specific methods (e.g. a certain bridge, or in this case a fan). Similarly, by not reporting on suicides you prevent some, but you basically take away their last voice. I don't know, I think it is a very hard dilemma.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#40

Post by bayesian_horse » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:30 AM UTC

Borrible wrote: post #22

ec109685 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a good point. There are places / mechanisms that become iconic and if you remove that or make it harder, people don’t necessarily move to something else. Palo Alto had a spate of suicides at a particular crossing, so they added guards and fences, and the suicides did not significantly move to other stops.

Yes, but has the number decreased because of some fancy fences at the Last Exit Caltrain or because of a whole program of measures? https://evolvetreatment.com/blog/palo-alto-teen-mental-healt...

Suicide isn't logical or rational. It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind, therefor it matters how accessible the means of ending one's life is.

Easy and instant access to firearms for example leads to way more successful (and even just attempted) suicides because it takes less time to take out a gun and shoot than virtually anything else.