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The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

intenseminimalism.com

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Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#32
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code" Depends on what we mean by 'code'. I don't expect designers to understand javascript, php, java, .net or whatever. I do expect someone who bills themselves as a web designer to understand the basic fundamentals of CSS, what works on various browsers, gradeful degradation strategies, etc. I don't really think you can do web design success…

They must understand that user can (and should be able to) change (just the) font size, if not their designs are often useless.

Useless might be a tad strong.

How many sites can you really change the font size? Unless of course you mean through the browser.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#33
post #3

Yay - designer/developer "teams". Sounds fair enough, but it's gotta work both ways. You as a designer need to be flexible. If I as a developer say "that can't be done within the given time/budget/constraints", you'll need to rework or rethink some of your precious design. I as a developer need to sometimes do some more research to make sure something can, in fact, be done, instead of relying on 10 year old preconcep…

Design is not about the tools you use, and development is not about the code you write. Developers can learn design fundamentals (and I mean really basic "what's the idea behind this color/element/typographic decision?") without touching Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. Similarly, designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code, through research about the existing technologies and their use…

Similarly, designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code, through research about the existing technologies and their use cases.

True to some extent, but the more you know about what is and isn't possible, the closer you are to basically knowing how to program. I suppose how abstract your knowledge can be depends on what you're trying to do.

For example, I think game designers need to know a significant amount about how game engines work: maybe not the algorithms of, say, gouraud shading, but they do need to know what's possible and not possible in NPC AI, and the more complex the behavior they're designing is, the more they need to know about how NPC AI actually works, to have even a reasonable guess at how their ideas would translate into reality.

A few people have argued this under the labels "computational thinking" and "procedural literacy", a category of skills that doesn't necessarily involve knowing the syntax of C++, but does entail being able to think in terms of algorithms and technologies. There's also an older idea of "design thinking" that sees it as almost always including some technical aspect; that's common in architecture, where the ideal architect is a designer but still quite familiar with at least parts of material science.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#34

I disagree. Just to be clear, we're talking web design here in HTML/CSS, not actual programming in JavaScript or Ruby. HTML/CSS creates designs, just like pencils create sketches and paint brushes create painting. Sure, it's hard, but watercolor and oil painting is also hard and has to be learned. Web design is no different. IMO, in a team, creating the HTML and CSS is a responsibility of the designer. The developers…

Probably you never met amazing designers that can't even put a "." at the end of their sentences. People are different, with different mind, and intelligences. Forcing such a designer to "code" is just going to destroy his skillset, that otherwise would be of great use in a good and collaborative team. :)

If someone has to be forced to learn/use the underlying medium then there's nothing to destroy, they don't have the skillset to to do the job to begin with and they should probably just stick to doing print layout.

Having worked with designers ranging in skills from pure photoshop all the way to writes app code in addition to markup, CSS and javascript, in my experience a designer that doesn't have a solid understanding of raw markup, CSS and javascript is a liability.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#35
The actual problem is that many designers just don't understand how things work in general. They just "do some pictures"... Then ofc they get this "learn to code" line.

But I can say the same about programmers when it comes to design.

This is something that needs effort from both sides if you care about final result

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#37
Some of the best designers I've had the pleasure of working with didn't know how to write HTML or CSS. The did, however, deeply understand the constraints of web design. Knowing HTML and CSS gives you a de facto understanding of the constraints, but you don't actually have to write it in order to become a competent web designer.

I also think most people are thinking from the perspective of the scrappy start-up, where you must be multi-talented in order to cover various roles. In large organizations there's designers that only produce wireframes, then another designer comes along and produces the final visual output, and finally another guy comes and codes it. Not that it's the right way to do it, it's just that the expectations are being set too high.

Instead of putting down web designers who can't code, appreciate web designers who do it. This comes from a web designer who can code.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#38
post #27

The problem here is 'designers' is an ambiguous term and 'code' is a loose term. If the sentence is "Web designers should know at least HTML/CSS." as it should be, then the debate would proceed properly instead of everybody missing each other's point. Framing this whole argument into "designers should code" is not doing any side any favor.

Thank you. I agree that whenever someone writes such a post saying that web designers should or should not "code" then they should define what coding means in that context.

Creating HTML markup and CSS is debatable of whether to call it coding or not. But every web designer I've ever interviewed I expected them to write their own HTML markup and at least be of average skill with CSS. Ability with Javascript was a bonus but not required.

I have a design degree and I learned HTML in class as part of my minor. This was before CSS was common so it was all font tags and tables. They used FrontPage for this but I refused and stuck with Notepad in back of the class.

I, as a web designer, create my design, write the HTML markup, write the CSS and code the javascript. In some cases I tweak the back-end code to suit my needs if it's light. Heavy-lifting on the back-end is done by a programmer.

Truthfully, I'm probably more of a front-end developer these days though.

I am not a print designer therefore I would have a bit of a learning curve to re-acquaint myself with the medium which I learn in school. But it would be expected of me to learn it. Therefore, I don't feel it is wrong to expect a web designer to learn their medium as well.

But hey, everybody should pick what works for them. Some companies don't want designers involved in markup, that's fine. Some companies do, that's just as good.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#39
Methinks we are ignoring the elephant in the room. Sure, good teamwork will solve a lot of problems, regardless whether the designer can code or not. A team with all the skills combined can deal with both.

But there are people that have a vested interest in playing designers and developers against each other.

I've seen this happen time and time again, both via internal management and external clients: feeding designers and developers separately different bits of information (but never the whole picture), letting them make commitments based on that information and only then bringing the two together. The end result is that in order to make good on their separate commitments, designers and developers are left with very little room to compromise, which undermines the cooperation. The goal of this little divide-and-conquer game is to pressure them to come up with a result they otherwise would not have committed to given the time and budget constraints.

There's a reason why designers and developers are often very deliberately hired or managed separately for the same project. There are plenty of people who believe having designers and developers work together too closely is not in their interests.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#40

I will call your bullshit and raise you a fallacy. ;) But seriously, I think that pigeon-holing yourself into one skill set is the WORST thing you can do. If nothing else, you should at least attempt to learn code so that you might be able to produce reasonable, efficient designs that the coders can easily implement. But it goes much farther than that. Someone (on the internet) once said "programming is the new liter…

Wow, what a way to say I'm not good at either but it doesn't really matter in the end. Really? So you say you're not good at either but having knowledge empowers you? In what way? It gives you the ability to point out people better at those skills than you? I think you should focus on one until you feel you are good at it and then move on to the other.

Yes, anyone with an IQ above 70 can learn just about anything. Doesn't mean they will be good enough at it for a career. You make sound as if those abilities are not challenging or difficult in any way and anybody can do it. If that's what you are saying then I have to seriously disagree.

Good point about being a good programmer can save you time as a designer, but it can work the other way as well.

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