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Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

commonwealmagazine.org

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Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#31

Post by Banana699 »

goodpoint wrote: post #12
Jensson wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We are not so inclusivist as to tolerate intolerance such as yours." This is exactly what you shouldn't do. As long as you can talk to people you should. These people are talking, they aren't out there being violent or murdering people, they are just sitting there talking, if you attack verbally them like this then their kids will hate you as well. Like "my parents aren't racist, they just want us to get the best bo…

> "We are not so inclusivist as to tolerate intolerance such as yours." More like "we are inclusivist therefore we cannot tolerate intolerance such as yours".

I like how people willingly misunderstand Popper's parable of tolerance and think it's a gotcha. Popper was talking about those people who refuse to participate in free speech in the first place, not just your favorite intellectual enemies.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#32

Post by Jensson »

ModernMech wrote: post #30
Jensson wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you provide a single case to support your position? There is plenty, this article gives a good view, apparently people have been pushing for things I claimed for 50 years according to this article. I have no reason to believe all these "racists" described here aren't just people who push back against these movements. I'm not saying that such movements aren't warranted, however I would not say that people who ar…

I read the article. I don’t see a basis for the conversation you presented, nor the assertion about teachers associations, nor any information on the specific training teachers and professors are getting. I’m interested specifically in these claims you made in this thread. You are saying the basis for them is this article? Did you hold these beliefs before reading this article, or did it convince you of these beliefs…

The article states that there is a movement pushing literature by diverse authors into classrooms. The article also claims that there is a great pushback against that movement. Those two is what I am referring to.

People happily label pushback to such movements as "racist parents" and similar. I believe that people pushing back against movements shouldn't get rejected by society, this is the controversial part.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#33

Post by bryanrasmussen »

Jensson wrote: post #25
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the first line by the teacher would be something like - your kid needs to read a book by Maya Angelou or they would name some other specific black author. Or maybe they might say something like in order to diversify our reading we will be bringing books by black authors into the curriculum, authors like Maya Angelou. But I doubt they would say your kid needs to read a book by a black author. Because t…

> I'm pretty sure the first line by the teacher would be something like - your kid needs to read a book by Maya Angelou or they would name some other specific black author. No, they absolutely are talking about people like this, they say that kids needs to read books by black authors, then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black: > The push to modernize reading lists is challenging tradit…

>then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black

maybe the teacher finds appropriate authors who also happen to be black.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#34

Post by Jensson »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #33
Jensson wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure the first line by the teacher would be something like - your kid needs to read a book by Maya Angelou or they would name some other specific black author. No, they absolutely are talking about people like this, they say that kids needs to read books by black authors, then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black: > The push to modernize reading lists is challenging tradit…

>then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black maybe the teacher finds appropriate authors who also happen to be black.

Ok, the example wasn't clear enough. Lets take the more real world example:

Teacher Organization: Kids should be forced to read books by black authors.

Parent Organisation: I don't think you should do that, it isn't a good way to pick books.

Teacher Organisation: We are doing this to fix a historical problem, your pushback is just because you don't want your kids to read books by black authors, stop being such racist bigots! I really hate racist parents! Society shouldn't tolerate people like you!

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#35

Post by ModernMech »

Jensson wrote: post #32
ModernMech wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the article. I don’t see a basis for the conversation you presented, nor the assertion about teachers associations, nor any information on the specific training teachers and professors are getting. I’m interested specifically in these claims you made in this thread. You are saying the basis for them is this article? Did you hold these beliefs before reading this article, or did it convince you of these beliefs…

The article states that there is a movement pushing literature by diverse authors into classrooms. The article also claims that there is a great pushback against that movement. Those two is what I am referring to. People happily label pushback to such movements as "racist parents" and similar. I believe that people pushing back against movements shouldn't get rejected by society, this is the controversial part.

Okay, but a push for more diverse authors into the classroom is not the same as what you are presenting here.

What you’ve linked is not saying “we must read these authors because their skin is black”. It is saying “their black skin has caused them to live a life different from other authors, which has caused them to write something different from other authors, and we want to know about that.”

Based on our back and forth here, it seems you have presented a conversation you claim happens “often” that you’ve neither heard personally nor can cite an instance of it. This conversation is a strong caricature of teachers calling parents “racists” for not agreeing with their book choice.

Meanwhile the evidence you’ve linked to shows nothing of the kind. TFA doesn’t support it, nor does the article you linked.

What the Harvard article says is that the topics contained in literature written by white men who are now dead are not relatable to a diverse classroom. Unsurprisingly, people write what they know, and as is true with all people, straight white male people don’t know a whole lot about the lived experience of people who are not them e.g. gay, black, and women etc. One way to get this perspective is to read books by authors in those demographics.

Again, this is not the same as saying “we must read these authors because they are black.” There are many black authors who are not being suggested, and it’s not black authors to the exclusion of everyone else. What they have to say in their books is how the books get chosen. We are talking about content, not color. Does the color of the author change the content? Yes. And that’s the point, but it’s not racist to recognize that and want to learn from it.

So again I ask: where is the conversation between parents and students that you’ve heard often happening? I really want to know the answer to this and It’s concerning you are evading that question.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#36

Post by Jensson »

ModernMech wrote: post #35
Jensson wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article states that there is a movement pushing literature by diverse authors into classrooms. The article also claims that there is a great pushback against that movement. Those two is what I am referring to. People happily label pushback to such movements as "racist parents" and similar. I believe that people pushing back against movements shouldn't get rejected by society, this is the controversial part.

Okay, but a push for more diverse authors into the classroom is not the same as what you are presenting here. What you’ve linked is not saying “we must read these authors because their skin is black”. It is saying “their black skin has caused them to live a life different from other authors, which has caused them to write something different from other authors, and we want to know about that.” Based on our back and f…

> What you’ve linked is not saying “we must read these authors because their skin is black”. It is saying “their black skin has caused them to live a life different from other authors, which has caused them to write something different from other authors, and we want to know about that.”

Right, and the parents aren't saying "I refuse to let kids read any books by black authors", they are saying "don't put books into the curriculum just because the authors are black". I know the way I presented them wasn't 100% accurate, but I'd argue that it is way more accurate of their position than their representation of the parents position.

Now, the point isn't which of those sides are right. The point is that one side here argues that the others should get rejected by society since their position shouldn't be tolerated. I believe that side shouldn't do that. I believe the people who argues like that are way more damaging to society than the side they are arguing against.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#37

Post by mensetmanusman »

ModernMech wrote: post #26
brippalcharrid wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many teachers, professors and daycare workers have been trained to believe that this is an absolute, fundamental ground truth about their students and the air that they breathe; this is an increasingly prevalent worldview in the sphere of education, and we're likely to see further developments as it strengthens its hold.

I’m curious to know the basis of your assertions, to try to get a better idea of this situation from your point of view. First, the idea that many have been trained to believe this. What is this training specifically they are receiving? How many teachers/professors/daycare workers are receiving this training and where? By whom? Is the basis of this belief something you read or personal knowledge of teachers and profe…

Interestingly this is the top article on The Atlantic at the moment: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/universiti...

It’s an interesting trend where suddenly the universities are not only trying to find the truth, but apparently they have a monopoly on it.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#38

Post by ModernMech »

Jensson wrote: post #34
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black maybe the teacher finds appropriate authors who also happen to be black.

Ok, the example wasn't clear enough. Lets take the more real world example: Teacher Organization: Kids should be forced to read books by black authors. Parent Organisation: I don't think you should do that, it isn't a good way to pick books. Teacher Organisation: We are doing this to fix a historical problem, your pushback is just because you don't want your kids to read books by black authors, stop being such racist…

Why do you think this a more “real world” example? This is messaging coming from a teacher organization? Which one? Have you heard this in the real world personally? Or can you point us to where this conversation actually occurred, if it’s a real world example? Or is this something that just happens on Twitter?

What makes this conversation more real than the other one, which you claimed happens often. Does that one not happen often after all?

I’m just looking for the real world basis of this model conversation you have written for us here. What has given you this perception? Facebook? Twitter? Your personal experience with teachers associations (which ones)? Your friends and family?

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#39

Post by Jensson »

ModernMech wrote: post #38
Jensson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, the example wasn't clear enough. Lets take the more real world example: Teacher Organization: Kids should be forced to read books by black authors. Parent Organisation: I don't think you should do that, it isn't a good way to pick books. Teacher Organisation: We are doing this to fix a historical problem, your pushback is just because you don't want your kids to read books by black authors, stop being such racist…

Why do you think this a more “real world” example? This is messaging coming from a teacher organization? Which one? Have you heard this in the real world personally? Or can you point us to where this conversation actually occurred, if it’s a real world example? Or is this something that just happens on Twitter? What makes this conversation more real than the other one, which you claimed happens often. Does that one n…

It is "more real world", not "real world". The example is exaggerated to make a point.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#40

Post by bryanrasmussen »

Jensson wrote: post #34
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black maybe the teacher finds appropriate authors who also happen to be black.

Ok, the example wasn't clear enough. Lets take the more real world example: Teacher Organization: Kids should be forced to read books by black authors. Parent Organisation: I don't think you should do that, it isn't a good way to pick books. Teacher Organisation: We are doing this to fix a historical problem, your pushback is just because you don't want your kids to read books by black authors, stop being such racist…

Ok I read the link to the article above, it was sort all over the place but a major part of the article was about a teacher who found that some of their non-white students thought it lame to always be reading about white people, so the teacher mixed their curriculum with books that they thought would appeal more to their students, which had black characters in them.

It was not specified in this part that the books added by the teacher were written by people of any particular racial profile, although that is probably the case it is not certain given that writers such as Ursula K. LeGuin were white but often had non-white protagonists.

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