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Weird English

nationalreview.com

31–40 of 110 posts

Re: Weird English

#31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathise with the view (non-native English speaker from Europe). While it's true English has a ton of inconsistencies, complications etc. they tend to happen at a slightly higher level I think. There is a reasonably big subset of English that is quite easy. French and German, not to mention Polish, are much harder to learn IMO, since the difficulties are up-front. Some examples: - French conjugation of verbs is a…

> Tenses in English are quite nicely organised into a Cartesian product of {past, present, future} x {simple, perfect, continuous} Alas, they are not. You can have a perfect continuous, for instance: ‘I had been waiting’. Furthermore, the future doesn’t fit into the same paradigm as the other two tenses, both syntactically and semantically. I prefer to think of it as follows, at least in the realis case: {non-prospec…

> Alas, they are not. You can have a perfect continuous, for instance: ‘I had been waiting’. Furthermore, the future doesn’t fit into the same paradigm as the other two tenses, both syntactically and semantically. I prefer to think of it as follows, at least in the realis case: {non-prospective, prospective} × {non-perfect, perfect} × {simple, continuous} × {past, present}. (The irrealis is more difficult, and overlaps somewhat with the realis.)

It's all true, and I'm not pretending English is a trivial language. My point is, you can speak fairly good English with no knowledge of any of these complications. You simply cannot escape from fundamental complexities in all the European languages I know, that need to be navigated for even simple communication. It helps that the tenses are at least somewhat organised. This "Cartesian" model is much clearer to me than e.g. the French "bag of tenses".

Of course you can argue what's "basic communication". Something like "I go train Manchester tomorrow" is fairly unambigous, but very poor use of language. My impression and point is that it's much easier to speak simple, correct English than it is to speak simple, correct {French,German,Polish}.

Re: Weird English

#32
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't it break the illusion if Klingons and Dothraki just happened to speak a real Earth language? Would it matter? None of the characters are supposed to speak English in-universe either.

But implied translation into the language of the audience is a long-standing convention. We don't watch Ben Hur or Spartacus or I, Claudius and wonder why the Romans are all speaking English instead of Classical Latin. But it might jar to hear a group of aliens natively speaking Dutch, for example. (Unless it's a Dutch film for a Dutch audience, of course, in which case it might equally jar to hear them speaking Engl…

It was commonly done at the time by having people with different accents. See the queen’s Latin trope. It would not be any weirder intrinsically, we’re just not used to it.

Re: Weird English

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't it break the illusion if Klingons and Dothraki just happened to speak a real Earth language? Would it matter? None of the characters are supposed to speak English in-universe either.

You're forgetting the actual speakers of those languages.

I am really not, and I am an actual speaker of a couple of those languages. The fact that we have to suspend disbelief and pretend the main characters are actually not speaking English is just a convention.

Re: Weird English

#34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But implied translation into the language of the audience is a long-standing convention. We don't watch Ben Hur or Spartacus or I, Claudius and wonder why the Romans are all speaking English instead of Classical Latin. But it might jar to hear a group of aliens natively speaking Dutch, for example. (Unless it's a Dutch film for a Dutch audience, of course, in which case it might equally jar to hear them speaking Engl…

It was commonly done at the time by having people with different accents. See the queen’s Latin trope. It would not be any weirder intrinsically, we’re just not used to it.

Well, that's fair.

> people with different accents

Done to (arguably) comic effect in the BBC sitcom 'Allo 'Allo!, about the French Resistance in WW2, where English, French and German are all indicated by outrageous caricatures of the relevant accents.

Re: Weird English

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swedish brought in a big corpus of words from French though (native English, passable Swedish, school French), due to diplomatic relations in the 1700s. So, e.g. Army: Danish hær, Norwegian hær, Swedish armé, French armée Ice-cream: Danish is, Norwegian is, Swedish glass, French glace Arm-chair: Danish lænestol, Norwegian lenestol, Swedish fåtölj, French fauteuil Window: Danish vindue, Norwegian vindu, Swedish fönste…

> And the pronunciation is not always obvious either with French loanwords. Or the spelling. I mean, I know how the letters are pronounced, so I can see that fåtölj is actually a good transcription, but visually it bears no resemblance whatsoever with fauteuil. I have found that French words that ended up in English were actually quite difficult to recognise in a conversation, even though they are written exactly as…

> Nothing that comes close to the utterly bizarre prononciation of the /r/ in /iron/.

Compare English "iron" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-iron.ogg

German "eiern" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:De-eiern.ogg

French "ailler" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:LL-Q150_(fra)-Lepticed7-...

None of the s is anything like [r].

Re: Weird English

#36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swedish brought in a big corpus of words from French though (native English, passable Swedish, school French), due to diplomatic relations in the 1700s. So, e.g. Army: Danish hær, Norwegian hær, Swedish armé, French armée Ice-cream: Danish is, Norwegian is, Swedish glass, French glace Arm-chair: Danish lænestol, Norwegian lenestol, Swedish fåtölj, French fauteuil Window: Danish vindue, Norwegian vindu, Swedish fönste…

Nitpick - some of the variations between Swedish and Norwegian is because Swedish and Norwegian ended up with different words from Middle Low German, i.e. the differences stem back from the Hansa period, and not as late as the French relations of the 1700s. So, "fönster", for example, didn't get picked from French, it's from Middle Low German "vinster" (which became "finster, fynster" and then "fönster" in Swedish).…

I love a nitpick, thanks for the impromptu history lesson. I really need to read up more on the Hansa period.

Re: Weird English

#38
post #12

English is a beautiful slow motion car crash of multiple languages & influences and the result is a great language but I do pity anyone trying to learn it. When I was having difficulty learning the rules & oddities of another language, it really helped me to look back at English and remember that there are so many oddities, inconsistencies and variances, that most other European languages are easy to master in compar…

Every person I’ve talked to who’s learned English as a second language told me it was pretty easy. There’s lots of weird shit to learn to truly master it, but to learn enough to speak conversationally is easy, I’ve been told. When I was in Costa Rica learning Spanish, the folks there pitied me since they thought learning Spanish would be difficult. Funnily enough, in contrast I thought it wasn’t so hard: having clear rules for verb conjugation and tenses, few irregular words I needed to learn, and very regular pronunciation. If I wasn’t so rusty I might still even remember all 14 tenses.

Re: Weird English

#39
post #19
post #12

English is a beautiful slow motion car crash of multiple languages & influences and the result is a great language but I do pity anyone trying to learn it. When I was having difficulty learning the rules & oddities of another language, it really helped me to look back at English and remember that there are so many oddities, inconsistencies and variances, that most other European languages are easy to master in compar…

From my perspective, despite inconsistencies it's one of the easier languages to learn at a basic level as you can ramp up and start using a working subset of it pretty quickly. German in comparison has a steep up-front learning curve and requires a lot of investment to get anything out of.

Yep. It's an easy language to speak on a functional level, but very difficult to master on a native level. Lots of native speakers never master all the nuances.

Re: Weird English

#40
I'm amazed at how many different words UK and USA English have for the same thing. Even though I started watching UK tv shows on PBS in the 80s, I started watching Taskmaster on youtube and I hear unfamiliar words for things all the time. The one from last night was "pedal bin." Before they showed what it was I was imagining some kind of bicycle with a trash can on it but it was a trash can whose lid opens when you step on the pedal. I don't think we have a separate name for that in the USA.
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