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Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

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Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#31

Post by andrewflnr »

ddw wrote: post #18

Funny how these guys can only afford these things from their profits in "nanny states." Basically this guy is keeping it close to San Francisco so that he can earn him money here and suck it over to his amusement park. If he really believed in "libertarianism" he would just do it without the money and see how he can prosper then. But alas, the super rich are not like everyone else.

You have a strange view of libertarianism if you think he would need to build his floating city without money to be truly following it. I thought libertarianism is about the right to do whatever you want with your money?

Such a project would necessarily take a large amount of resources, regardless of the intentions behind it. In practical terms, that means money. I don't see why that's strange.

Now if you think it's just going to be an amusement park, that's a separate issue. I agree that there's at least a significant risk of that. It would be a waste of a good idea.

Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#32

Post by gexla »

dstein wrote: post #20
eegilbert wrote: post #3

Wouldn't "countries" like this be super vulnerable to attack? A few well-placed charges and it's like the place never existed.

One guy with a machine gun could conquer this country in 10 minutes. And if it's truly sovereign then it would be completely legal.

Peter Thiel could afford an Apache, an F-16, some small gun boats and a bunch of mercenaries. He could probably even afford a nuke if he could get away with it.

Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#33

Post by mwsherman »

ddw wrote: post #18

Funny how these guys can only afford these things from their profits in "nanny states." Basically this guy is keeping it close to San Francisco so that he can earn him money here and suck it over to his amusement park. If he really believed in "libertarianism" he would just do it without the money and see how he can prosper then. But alas, the super rich are not like everyone else.

I find “these guys” arguments are perfectly unenlightening — though some prefer the phrasing “those people”.

One should respond to arguments Thiel is actually making, if he is making an argument at all. He thinks it’s an interesting idea. If it turns out to be stupid, great.

Nobody does things “for ideology”. People do things they think are correct or useful or interesting, not for straw-man “ism”s. Is the criticism that he is insufficiently ideological?

Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#34

Post by andrewflnr »

I think you'll need several of them linked together before you get any useful testbed for government. Most systems of government can work at small scale. They don't break until you get lots of people. The whole thing should also wind up being more stable socially.

I really like the idea of ocean-going governmental experiments. Let's have socialist experiments and parecon experiments while we're at it. They really need to be sovereign, or they're just big cruise ships. They need to have complete ownership of the platforms, which almost means they need to be donated.

Obviously sinking is a big risk. Make sure there are well-drilled emergency procedures, and that the links between platforms are such that one sinking will not bring down any others. And keep lifeboats and dual citizenship, so if it goes south you'll have somewhere to go when they pick you out of the ocean.

I suspect that even if the first few iterations of this idea suck and/or are used for crass commercial purposes, it will likely get ironed out eventually. I think seagoing countries could be an important part of the future someday.

Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#35

Post by christkv »

I am Andrew Ryan, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well.

Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#36

Post by damonpace »

christkv wrote: post #35

I am Andrew Ryan, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear…

I thought of the exact same thing when I read this. I still like it though.

Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#37

Post by christkv »

tomjen3 wrote: post #25
dstein wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One guy with a machine gun could conquer this country in 10 minutes. And if it's truly sovereign then it would be completely legal.

Actually not. Agressive war is no longer legal (you can end up in Hague).

That's horrible the us and eu countries must be going before the Hague then for the Libian bombings. Oh wait that's right they write the rules so it does not apply to them just to governments with less military might.

What is "non" Agressive war is always defined by who holds the biggest gun.

Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#38

Post by NHQ »

You'd still have to bank in other currencies, and you'd have to put your money in the markets of major economies, on which you would have to pay taxes. And you're not getting rid of social welfare like minimum wage, you're getting rid of the society. Is that what libertarians really are, at heart, merely anti-social?

For you the Randists and anti-Randists, and techo-utopians, feast your ideals on the great Adam Curtis' latest social hackumentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz2j3BhL47c

Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#39

Post by endtime »

leandrod wrote: post #27

Jules Verne’s _The Floating Island_ foresaw ðis. Its conclusion? Inhabitants could not agree on much, so the island got torn apart.

This is called generalization from fictional evidence. http://lesswrong.com/lw/k9/the_logical_fallacy_of_generaliza...

Re: Paypal Founder Peter Thiel Invests to Create Floating Micro-Countries

#40

Post by endtime »

dstein wrote: post #20
eegilbert wrote: post #3

Wouldn't "countries" like this be super vulnerable to attack? A few well-placed charges and it's like the place never existed.

One guy with a machine gun could conquer this country in 10 minutes. And if it's truly sovereign then it would be completely legal.

You think the residents won't have weapons?
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