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Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

theguardian.com

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Re: Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

#31

Post by npmn »

maccolgan wrote: post #15
saimiam wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current Indian resident here. This is the NDA government’s default response to any and all questioning - that the questioner is out to malign india. The ploy is obvious and transparent but seems to be working. I just wish we had a viable opposition party/alliance whom we could send to office.

It's not really a NDA government default response, it is also the de facto default response for any alleged government mishap. It straight up dates back to the Emergency days.

It is the default response of the NDA government specifically, the last government on allegation of non-existent scam(proven in courts later), was open to all the proceedings which concluded after their government was out of office.

I really miss those day.

Re: Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

#33

Post by ridiculous_leke »

tw600040 wrote: post #26
naruvimama wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes this democratically elected government authoritarian? India is surrounded by communist China, Islamist Pakistan, Afganistan, Bangladesh (where only a couple of days ago 300 Hindus were murdered by Islamist for no reason), Military dictatorship in Myanmar. I do not know what benchmark you use for authoritarianism.

EXACTLY. You can't just label any government you don't like as undemocratic or authoritarian randomly. If elections were held and when there were no electoral fraud and people voted for this Government, it doesn't just magically become undemocratic just because you don't like it.

Calling India undemocratic is definitely a stretch. But the current government is definitely more authoritarian. Considering the huge lack of respect to law and order in India, that's fair to a certain extent. Here, in the US, anti-vaxxers practically have a free reign in certain places. Any attempt to coerce them into vaccination is considered as "authoritarian".

Re: Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

#34

Post by dddnzzz334 »

naruvimama wrote: post #28

The Indian government is democratically elected, the supreme court is a closed club. The Indian government investigates citizens with shady international activities. The (undemocratic) court wants access to state secrets. Not happening.

The BJP government was investigating its political enemies with the intent of subverting democracy and getting absolute and authoritarian control over India.

The Judiciary is protecting the constitution and its principles.

The BJP government openly supports terrorists [1][2] and tries to defame the principles on which the country is based on.

>The Indian government is democratically elected

The BJP government is trying to destroy those very democratic principles. Spying on citizens and journalists and supporting terrorism are just few of the examples. The NSDAP was also democratically elected in 1933. [3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca_Masjid_blast

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29_September_2008_western_Indi...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_elec...

Re: Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

#35

Post by dddnzzz334 »

naruvimama wrote: post #25
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to elected representatives You and everyone else marching India towards authoritarianism. Following the tracks of every failed democracy that didn't fall to an invasion or military coup fails: not understanding the difference between majoritarianism and democracy. (I was actually surprised to see the Supreme Court pushing back on the government--I didn't realize India…

What makes this democratically elected government authoritarian? India is surrounded by communist China, Islamist Pakistan, Afganistan, Bangladesh (where only a couple of days ago 300 Hindus were murdered by Islamist for no reason), Military dictatorship in Myanmar. I do not know what benchmark you use for authoritarianism.

India falling in various democracy and freedom indexes [1][2] are definitely a benchmark.

But of course, your next reply will be how flawed these indexes are and how the entire world has some vendetta against India.

[1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...

[2] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-again-placed-at...

Re: Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

#36

Post by gigglesupstairs »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #27
gigglesupstairs wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to give benefit of doubt to elected representatives who wanted to form an investigative committee by themselves to investigate whether they themselves deployed Pegasus and spied on country’s citizens. “Yeah, right.”, that’s what SC effectively said to them here.

The problem is that the SC is also corrupt in India and highly undemocratic. Even https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/04/in... The judiciary acts like the mafia. Then, in 1993, it ruled that only sitting judges would be able to appoint new members of the judiciary. It was a coup of sorts. India’s founding Over the years, the scale of the problem has become staggering. In 2010, Bhushan’s father, Sha…

Everything you just said, irrespective of its veracity, is offtopic in this thread. You can/should create a new post if you want to discuss this.

Re: Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

#37

Post by CtznIndn »

naruvimama wrote: post #28

The Indian government is democratically elected, the supreme court is a closed club. The Indian government investigates citizens with shady international activities. The (undemocratic) court wants access to state secrets. Not happening.

Just because a Gov is elected democratically, doesn't absolve it of it's wrong-doings. Does not wash it's crimes. Applying your logic, even 'Emergency' can be justified! And how did u decide the citizens wre engaging in 'shady Intnal activities"? Innocent until prove guilty is the norm. And spying on Journalists and Opposition parties under the garb of 'Shady International activities' via a Military grade spyware is unbecoming of a democratic nation.

Re: Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

#38

Post by sinyug »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12
sinyug wrote: post #10

> The judges said indiscriminate spying could not be allowed and highlighted the “chilling” effect it could have on freedom of speech and freedom of the press. I don't know if this is what the judges said or if it is the Guardian's spin on what they said. Either way, the Indian constitution has no separate guarantee for "freedom of the press."[1] Theoretically, the press has as much (or as little) freedom as the comm…

> I would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to elected representatives You and everyone else marching India towards authoritarianism. Following the tracks of every failed democracy that didn't fall to an invasion or military coup fails: not understanding the difference between majoritarianism and democracy. (I was actually surprised to see the Supreme Court pushing back on the government--I didn't realize India…

> not understanding the difference between majoritarianism and democracy

Democracy literally is: rule of the people. If the majority in a country votes one way and this way is not acceptable to the minority, there are a few ways to frustrate the will of the people:

- give minorities veto power over decisions affecting the lives of the majority

- install a permanent plutocracy within various arms of the government that is not answerable to the people in any way, shape or form

This happens in India all the time. Know, however, that all these options are undemocratic to the core. And eventually ends badly for everyone involved.

Re: Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

#39

Post by cscurmudgeon »

gigglesupstairs wrote: post #36
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the SC is also corrupt in India and highly undemocratic. Even https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/04/in... The judiciary acts like the mafia. Then, in 1993, it ruled that only sitting judges would be able to appoint new members of the judiciary. It was a coup of sorts. India’s founding Over the years, the scale of the problem has become staggering. In 2010, Bhushan’s father, Sha…

Everything you just said, irrespective of its veracity, is offtopic in this thread. You can/should create a new post if you want to discuss this.

The post is about India's SC. How is discussing its neutrality and corruption make it off topic?

The comment I was replying to was discussing the govt appointing its own committee to investigate itself. My point was the supreme court is even more opaque and corrupt.

It is not democratically controlled, so the SC investigating here is not necessarily better.

Re: Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

#40

Post by raxxorrax »

ridiculous_leke wrote: post #30
naruvimama wrote: post #28

The Indian government is democratically elected, the supreme court is a closed club. The Indian government investigates citizens with shady international activities. The (undemocratic) court wants access to state secrets. Not happening.

That's rather tragic. The judiciary can be reigned in one way or the other by the legislature. Ideally, the country should have a strong executive (like the POTUS) who is accountable to the people instead of the legislature.

Don't know why you were downvoted. That is how separation of powers usually work.

That judges aren't also elected is sometimes a problem, even if they are bound by law. Different countries have different approaches here, the US has its juries, which is an unusual approach compared to other democracies.

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