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U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

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Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#31

Post by InclinedPlane »

AndyJPartridge wrote: post #26

I'm a UK guy. I won't argue that these sentences are disproportionate. But is it what we need in response to this? I'd argue yes. The spark for these "riots" was a gentleman who was killed during an arrest. Bad times, of course. Very bad times. But it's important to understand that the details of /exactly/ what happened here are currently officially unknown. The official report has not been released. On the back of t…

Bad people did bad things. Therefore brutally punish anyone who does anything bad, that'll keep everyone in line.

Perfectly logical, and perfectly medieval.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#32

Post by bugsy »

shazamjad wrote: post #19
andyking wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a crown court case, which is even more concerning. Crown court is used for serious offences which require a punishment of more than six months in prison, so for a case such as this to get from arrest to multi-year crown court sentence in a week is hugely concerning. A case has to first be heard in magistrates' court and handed to crown court, so it will have been in the hands of Chester Crown Court for just…

I wouldn't feel for those having justice dealt to them, not one bit. They not only participated in the riots - but made an effort to promote them. As for the woman who accepted stolen goods from her flatmate - she deserved it. The right course of action would've been to advise her flatmate to turn herself in and return the goods, or actually call the police herself. She decides to go through the stolen goods, picking…

We also should arrest all the people in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya who rioted in their countries this year as well. Disorder must not be tolerated! Government power above all else! Bow before your gods, peasants!

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#33

Post by ErrantX »

nkh wrote: post #18

Can someone from the UK comment on if 4-year sentences are typically served to full term. I believe in America, you can be sentenced to 4 years and only end up doing a few months of the actual sentence.

2 years. But I expect they'll be out befor that, or more likely overturned on appeal - once the heat/fear has calmed down then there will be less pressure for panic over reaction.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#34

Post by AndyJPartridge »

dave1010uk wrote: post #30
AndyJPartridge wrote: post #26

I'm a UK guy. I won't argue that these sentences are disproportionate. But is it what we need in response to this? I'd argue yes. The spark for these "riots" was a gentleman who was killed during an arrest. Bad times, of course. Very bad times. But it's important to understand that the details of /exactly/ what happened here are currently officially unknown. The official report has not been released. On the back of t…

Prison sentences, fines, comunity service, etc are already a deterrent to crime. These deterrents (and punishments) are considered proportionate to the crime by the judge/jury. I see no reason to single out rioting to be different, apart from emotional ones.

But it hasn't acted as a deterrent, has it. The first tiny window of opportunity these organised shoplifters had, they went for it.

It wasn't rioting or a protest.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#36

Post by bugsy »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #12

If they'd just generally called for a riot that would be one thing (possibly still illegal), these guys set a particular time and place which is what did them in. Blackshaw at least (because he actually showed up for his planned riot, the other chap didn't) would go to prison if he did this anywhere in the world. Even in the USA with its extremely strong protections for speech, inviting people to meet at a set place…

Hey we're "having a riot" out by the McDonalds on Orangethorpe Avenue in Anaheim tomorrow at 4pm. Hope you can make it, assuming free speech still exists in the US, unlike the british police state we fought to free ourselves from.

PS come and get me coppers.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=laugh%20riot

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#37

Post by AndyJPartridge »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #31
AndyJPartridge wrote: post #26

I'm a UK guy. I won't argue that these sentences are disproportionate. But is it what we need in response to this? I'd argue yes. The spark for these "riots" was a gentleman who was killed during an arrest. Bad times, of course. Very bad times. But it's important to understand that the details of /exactly/ what happened here are currently officially unknown. The official report has not been released. On the back of t…

Bad people did bad things. Therefore brutally punish anyone who does anything bad, that'll keep everyone in line. Perfectly logical, and perfectly medieval.

I can see where you are coming from, but in the case of the two involved in this story, it's a bit deeper.

On ones own, it is unlikely the average man will head off to a mobile phone store, force the shutter open, smash the windows and head off inside to collect some iOS booty.

Collectively, a group of men are considerably more likely to do so.

Organising a group of people on Facebook to gather and go forth and cause problems in a town is therefore a very serious issue.

(In this case, nobody did gather, but what if they did? Millions of pounds worth of damage may have been caused - as it was in other towns.)

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#38

Post by ErrantX »

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #10

"Jordan Blackshaw, left, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, both pleaded guilty to using Facebook in attempts to fuel riots in Cheshire . They have been jailed for four years" One wonders what sort of lawyer they had that recommended a guilty plea, or in the absence of a lawyer what was done to encourage that plea. "Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of 9 Augus…

This is just the tip of the ice berg; the most disparate crime/punishment of many.

Don't get me wrong; I've always been in favour of effective punishment - but this is totally the wrong time for our justice system to "go spare".

Firm but fair is important in situations like this. I approve of punishing these two, who did something idiotic with the potential for great harm. A slap on the wrists, or a small fine maybe.

The problem is fear. Certain parts of our population are scared to he'll by these riots (ironically, most have probably not been within 10 miles if a riot...) fed by the media and a government trying to save their image. (I mean, they've switched from criticising the police for being heavy handed during the G20 protest to criticising them for being too standoffish! And the media are lapping it up)

I've been as disapointed in our justice system this week as I have been with the rioters.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#40

Post by tzs »

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #10

"Jordan Blackshaw, left, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, both pleaded guilty to using Facebook in attempts to fuel riots in Cheshire . They have been jailed for four years" One wonders what sort of lawyer they had that recommended a guilty plea, or in the absence of a lawyer what was done to encourage that plea. "Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of 9 Augus…

Do courts in the UK have any flexibility in sentencing? Do defendants generally know what evidence the prosecution has against them?

If so, then I'd expect guilty pleas to often be sensible. If you know you are guilty, and you know that the prosecution has sufficient evidence to make it virtually certain you'll be convicted, why not plead guilty and hope that sways the court to leniency?

I'd expect a court to be more lenient with a defendant who admits his guilt and shows remorse for the crime than one who insists he is not guilty when he clearly is and clearly knows that he's going to be found guilty.

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