Bonhoeffer on Stupidity • Hacker News Board

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#31

Post by belter » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

oblak wrote: post #17

AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

First thing I thought when reading your comment was Men in Black Kay : A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

"Most of them are just trying to make a living..."

https://youtu.be/w2ppyMUlXfM

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#32

Post by plutonorm » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

Peak irony.

He calls out stupid people for being merely vessels for ideologies. Then immediately proceeds to declare - with effortless stupidity - that god is the source of liberation from stupidity.

It's peak irony. And it effortlessly describes the real state of the world; we are all bound by the ideas that flow through us. There is no escape into critical reasoning or any other ideology, precisely because these are all ideologies. They are merely information structures flowing through the network. You are always going to be 'stupid' by his definition unless you personally verify all the information you receive and conduct well designed experiments that you personally see the results of. Otherwise you are choosing a side and trusting one cluster of information structures over another. The world is a hall of mirrors - get used to it and design your world view to accept this state of affairs.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#33

Post by greenail » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

achenet wrote: post #28

teddyh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but what do you do ?

Try to help them understand each other.

But the premise of Bonhoeffer's theory predicts this will fall on deaf ears.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#34

Post by intrepidhero » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

>Yet at this very point it becomes quite clear that only an act of liberation, not instruction, can overcome stupidity. Here we must come to terms with the fact that in most cases a genuine internal liberation becomes possible only when external liberation has preceded it.

>It really will depend on whether those in power expect more from people’s stupidity than from their inner independence and wisdom.

Pretty radical. I'm still digesting. On the one hand, I do think that people, free in the external and internal sense tend to make better decisions than otherwise. But on the other hand I feel there is a missing necessary condition here. But I'm not sure what it is

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#35

Post by CoastalCoder » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

Do you have a source for what Bonhoeffer would have meant by that?

I have my own guess to its meaning, but I hesitate to say it does/doesn't match his definition without seeing some exposition on it.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#36

Post by abecedarius » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

Similar thoughts from Orwell from around the same time: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

It's curious how these both name a phenomenon with words that seem off-target, "stupidity" or "nationalism"; they seem to mean something like reducing yourself to a soldier for an egregore. Anyone have a better word for the general pattern?

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#37

Post by breakyerself » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

greenail wrote: post #7

What do you do when you have close to 50/50 power dynamic and both sides think the other is stupid?

Can we identify if both sides are actually stupid or is that just the perception of both sides?

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#38

Post by justin_oaks » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

Malicious people's lies can be debunked, but the stupid people who believe the lies can't be corrected through debunking.

We see this a lot today. Although it's nothing new, social media and the internet has made it easier for people to find those lies, and find others to help reinforce the lies in each other's minds.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#39

Post by AnimalMuppet » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

preach wrote: post #2

> The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom declares that the internal liberation of human beings to live the responsible life before God is the only genuine way to overcome stupidity. Do you agree?

Tolkein said that it didn't pay to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you happened to live near one. In the same way, it's a good idea to think very carefully about how God affects you, if you happen to live in a universe where He exists.

So the first question is, do you live in such a universe? Is He there, or not? Not "would you prefer Him to exist, or not?" Not "Does your culture say He exists?" But does He actually exist? Is He really there?

If He exists, this is a very different universe than if He doesn't. And it would be wisdom to live in a manner that fits the universe you are in...

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#40

Post by avitous » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

abecedarius wrote: post #36

Similar thoughts from Orwell from around the same time: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel... It's curious how these both name a phenomenon with words that seem off-target, "stupidity" or "nationalism"; they seem to mean something like reducing yourself to a soldier for an egregore. Anyone have a better word for the general pattern?

Erich Fromm's "Escape From Freedom", written around the same time, also touches on similar ideas centered around why and in what situations people can be steered toward totalitarianism.