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Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

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Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#31
post #20

Samsung has a dishonorable marketing department. 3nm is not actually 3nm. I'm fed up... OLED is superior so they had to take the path of calling theirs QLED which is actually just an LCD screen with phosphors on top of a blue backlight (and it's nothing new).

What is the best metric nowadays? Dhrystones/MIPS/FLOPS per MHz/Watt per square inch? As a complete outsider, millions of transistors per square inch sounds like a very intuitive metric of how small things are.

I prefer bogomips.

Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#32
post #2

At what point does quantum tunnelling become a problem?

It already has been a problem in terms of gate leakage, although largely mitigated by material improvements.

Gate leakage is the phenomenon of quantum tunneling through the gate dielectric barrier and started appearing as gate dielectrics became thinner and thinner. Gate leakage was mitigated by moving to higher k dielectrics (from silicon dioxide, SiO2, to more exotic materials that include other elements such as Hafnium).

Higher k dielectrics allow for the same capacitance per unit area and channel control with a thicker physical gate compared to plain SiO2, reducing gate leakage. This technology change came along with metal gates (which used to be polysilicon) and were a combined advance that Intel incorporated a few years before before TSMC, IIRC circa 2008.

This is a circuit designer's perspective. Someone who actually understands device physics and material properties can chime in to correct me.

Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First though, "5nm", "3nm" and so on are just marketing names. There is nothing about "5nm" that makes it "5nm" other than the company in question saying it is. Some things are smaller than 5nm on a given 5nm node, and some are larger. I cannot recall exactly what node this started to be the case (there used to be an actual definition, one for DRAM, one for logic), but it was in the past two decades and got particula…

>but it was in the past two decades and got particularly ridiculous beginning around "28nm" up to now. I wonder if that is some kind of cultural shift that is taking place that started around 2009, or if it's always been like this and I just never noticed. BMW model numbers used to more or less accurately reflect engine sizes, not anymore, it's just numbers now. 2G, 3G, 4G used to mean something, not anymore. I could…

Advertisers ruin everything.

Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#34
post #20

Samsung has a dishonorable marketing department. 3nm is not actually 3nm. I'm fed up... OLED is superior so they had to take the path of calling theirs QLED which is actually just an LCD screen with phosphors on top of a blue backlight (and it's nothing new).

What is the best metric nowadays? Dhrystones/MIPS/FLOPS per MHz/Watt per square inch? As a complete outsider, millions of transistors per square inch sounds like a very intuitive metric of how small things are.

If we are just looking at the fabrication process, as opposed to CPU architecture, MTr/mm² – million transistors per a square millimetre. But transistor density can be variable depending on the type of circuit, so the standard calculation uses a weighted average of two different cell types – NAND2 and SFF (scan flip-flop)

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/mtr-mm%C2%B2

Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The design of EUV lasers is already completely absurd. It's an awesome piece of engineering, but it's no easier to push the laser wavelength downwards than anything else.

Does the lithography require the tight wavelength or other nice properties of lasers? I had thought they used filtered synchrotron output since a while ago. Basically everything about the process is absurd, not sure why pushing on the light source is less feasible then any of the other knobs

Diffraction limit becomes a real problem at these feature sizes even with short wavelength light, and the physical properties of short wavelength light start to damage equipment and cause serious other issues even at the current levels.

At some point it’s switching from ‘lots of wiffle balls in a stream’ to ‘high power machine gun fire’, and the physical properties of everything involved become very limiting.

Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#36
post #32
post #2

At what point does quantum tunnelling become a problem?

It already has been a problem in terms of gate leakage, although largely mitigated by material improvements. Gate leakage is the phenomenon of quantum tunneling through the gate dielectric barrier and started appearing as gate dielectrics became thinner and thinner. Gate leakage was mitigated by moving to higher k dielectrics (from silicon dioxide, SiO2, to more exotic materials that include other elements such as Ha…

[deleted]

Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#37
post #32
post #2

At what point does quantum tunnelling become a problem?

It already has been a problem in terms of gate leakage, although largely mitigated by material improvements. Gate leakage is the phenomenon of quantum tunneling through the gate dielectric barrier and started appearing as gate dielectrics became thinner and thinner. Gate leakage was mitigated by moving to higher k dielectrics (from silicon dioxide, SiO2, to more exotic materials that include other elements such as Ha…

Your nickname rings familiar. Ex-Xilinx by any chance?

Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#38
post #20

Samsung has a dishonorable marketing department. 3nm is not actually 3nm. I'm fed up... OLED is superior so they had to take the path of calling theirs QLED which is actually just an LCD screen with phosphors on top of a blue backlight (and it's nothing new).

What is the best metric nowadays? Dhrystones/MIPS/FLOPS per MHz/Watt per square inch? As a complete outsider, millions of transistors per square inch sounds like a very intuitive metric of how small things are.

[deleted]

Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First though, "5nm", "3nm" and so on are just marketing names. There is nothing about "5nm" that makes it "5nm" other than the company in question saying it is. Some things are smaller than 5nm on a given 5nm node, and some are larger. I cannot recall exactly what node this started to be the case (there used to be an actual definition, one for DRAM, one for logic), but it was in the past two decades and got particula…

>but it was in the past two decades and got particularly ridiculous beginning around "28nm" up to now. I wonder if that is some kind of cultural shift that is taking place that started around 2009, or if it's always been like this and I just never noticed. BMW model numbers used to more or less accurately reflect engine sizes, not anymore, it's just numbers now. 2G, 3G, 4G used to mean something, not anymore. I could…

Waaaaay back in the day, the Electro Motive Division (EMD) of General Motors make railroad locomotive. They had the GP-20 with 2000 horsepower, and the SD-24 with 2400 HP. Then General Electric entered the business with the U-25, having 2500 HP. EMD's next model was the GP-30, with (ahem) 2250 HP. This was in 1961.

So, yeah. This is nothing new. Marketers gonna market.

Re: Samsung Foundry Forum announcements

#40
post #20

Samsung has a dishonorable marketing department. 3nm is not actually 3nm. I'm fed up... OLED is superior so they had to take the path of calling theirs QLED which is actually just an LCD screen with phosphors on top of a blue backlight (and it's nothing new).

> I'm fed up

Cool. I'm excited to get another Samsung phone. Suit yourself.

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