Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#31

Post by napierzaza » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:26 AM UTC

yanw wrote: post #3

Corporations based and operating in the US are subject to the PATRIOT Act, it's a shitty law but it's still the law. At least they are transparent about it. Edit: here is the article in question: http://www.wiwo.de/politik-weltwirtschaft/google-server-in-e... They asked if their EU based dataceters are also subject to US warrants and they answered that they are.

Yes, Google is such an innovative and constructive company. I imagine that they will make it up to us with a brand new innovative product that we can use while on the toilet.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#32

Post by iwwr » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:27 AM UTC

It's not as if EU governments have any more qualms about the privacy of their citizens.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#33

Post by ditojim » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:28 AM UTC

ZoFreX wrote: post #10

ditojim wrote: post #2

The first sentence of the article also mentions that Microsoft has been forced to do the same thing.

No it doesn't: > Gordon Frazer, Microsoft UK's managing director, made news headlines some weeks ago when he admitted that Microsoft can be compelled to share data with the US government regardless of where it is hosted in the world.

Read between the lines. Don't be naive.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#34

Post by mkuhn » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:29 AM UTC

yanw wrote: post #29

ZoFreX wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And corporations based and operating in Europe are subject to our data protection laws. Microsoft and Google (and plenty others) have fully fledged companies in Europe. This raises an interesting question - what should companies do when they are subject to mutually exclusive laws like that? My opinion is that they need to comply with the laws, which might require not having overseas companies in this case. Could they…

I'm merely guessing, but seeing how the law takes a backseat when security and anti-terror are involved I suppose that EU governments and the US have reached some sort of agreement about which set of laws to enforce in certain cases.

My guess is that such an "agreement" would have been reached by one side only...

The law has been taking much less of a backseat in Europe when it comes to security and anti-terror. Also I find it hard to believe that the EU would just give up its data protection laws just to please Americans and allow the enforcement of an American law.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#35

Post by omh » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:29 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #30

arethuza wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They almost certainly have local operating companies that are wholly owned subsidiaries of the US parent company - just having a separate company isn't enough I suspect that separate ownership would also be requried.

They could set up special purpose vehicles, with very clear operating rules. That way, if the US asks, Google can say that they have no control over the subsidiary.

If Google US has no control over Google EU then a number of issues could arise. Does Google EU have access to Google US data? What about the code that runs everything? What about profits - why would Google EU send profits back to Google US?

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#36

Post by meow » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:32 AM UTC

I think the requirement to be silent about handing over data is more for the corporations than the government. No wonder this remained secret for so long.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#37

Post by arethuza » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:34 AM UTC

power wrote: post #25

arethuza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Patriot Act seems to trump the EU law in many cases" For the parts of Google in the US - yes. For the parts of Google in the EU - no.

But the parts of Google in the US shouldn't have access to EU citizens' information if they're upholding the EU law

Well, there is that as well. But I guess most people are less concerned about Google US having access to their data (even if it is illegal) than their data being given to US intelligence agencies.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#38

Post by StrawberryFrog » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:39 AM UTC

aik wrote: post #24

StrawberryFrog wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the "The Patriot Act seem to trump the EU law" ? In what sense? I reject the idea that a US law is more important in Europe than an European one. If that is what has happened, then it is wrong. If nothing was hidden, why is this policy only coming to light after the fact? There seems to be some degree of not wanting people to know.

From the article "but they [the companies] can be forced to keep quiet about it in order to avoid exposing active investigations and alert those targeted by the probes." There are a number of reasons why both the government and the companies would want to keep it secret: 1. Bad reputation for the company. 2. Bad reputation for the government on how much spying they actually are doing. 3. "keep quiet about it in order…

> There are a number of reasons why both the government and the companies would want to keep it secret:

Which are much the same reasons why someone who has stolen a TV would want to keep that secret. It doesn't make it an idea worth encouraging.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#39

Post by StrawberryFrog » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:40 AM UTC

yanw wrote: post #22

StrawberryFrog wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the "The Patriot Act seem to trump the EU law" ? In what sense? I reject the idea that a US law is more important in Europe than an European one. If that is what has happened, then it is wrong. If nothing was hidden, why is this policy only coming to light after the fact? There seems to be some degree of not wanting people to know.

I'm sure that a secret agreement between EU governments and the US have been reached, as is the case when security is involved.

Quite likely. That'd doesn't make it legal, necessary or even a good idea.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#40

Post by omh » Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:40 AM UTC

The article doesn't mention the "Safe Harbor" provisions. This is a negotiated exception to EU Data Protection - roughly speaking, US companies can export the data to the US, as long as they promise to give equivalent protection. Google uses this to allow it to operate with personal data in the EU.

If Google have exported the data to a US jurisdiction under Safe Harbor, then a subsequent PATRIOT Act request wouldn't need to involve any EU-stored data or EU companies.

This seems like a much more general issue with exceptions like Safe Harbor, and something that people/companies should bear in mind. Promises like "equivalent" protection don't help with new local laws which can always trump anything.