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Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

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Re: Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

#31

Post by amelius »

pitched wrote: post #21
GekkePrutser wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did say "at Apple". But Carmack is from a generation where developers were often still working on something on their own. I do see a shift to a model where developers are viewed more as a commodity and less as artists. In a "just throw more developers at the problem" kind of way.

It feels like the trend right now is that developers are more expensive than managers. So if they’re a commodity, it’s the most precious kind. If the power dynamic keeps shifting that way though, I bet we’ll see some more like artists and less like cogs in the machine. Maybe not so much artists and more like other professionals.

Unfortunately, having a unique ability is no guarantee for not being treated like dirt, history tells us. E.g. look at how women have been treated historically up to recently.

Re: Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

#32

Post by Uehreka »

scns wrote: post #28
amelius wrote: post #4

There's one difference though. Unlike product designers, software engineers will never be in the spotlights. Not at Apple, anyway. E.g. tell me how many times you've read an article about Jony Ive versus about an important software engineer at Apple.

At Apple? Maybe not. But elsewhere? Maybe no articles written about them but books or chapters ([0], [1]) written by them. In the spotlight? You betcha, i think watching talks by Brian Cantrill is highly entertaining. Rich Rickeys' talks are highly regarded on HN (making a mental note to watch them). Carmack talking at Quakecon for hours about many different things. (edit) formatting and links [0] https://www.amazon.…

> At Apple? Maybe not.

Chris Lattner (inventor of LLVM and Swift) was pretty prominent when he was at Apple. He got stage time during at least one keynote and was well known in the macOS/iOS community. Not to mention that their engineering leads in general get to present their work every year to the devs who will be using it during the WWDC sessions.

Re: Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

#33

Post by criddell »

ramshorst wrote: post #13

Cool ! I always wonder what modern UI would look like guided by these principles... I am a full-stack product designer.

My guess it would probably have to be native clients. It's hard to see how browser based clients can fit many of these principles better than a native client.

The best would be a native executable with no required server component.

Re: Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

#35

Post by dangus »

lbriner wrote: post #24

Prepares to be downvoted... Why are these supposed to be special? Everyone would agree with these in theory but the problem is not lack of these principles, the problem is how to actually use them in a fast moving business with imperfect tools, imperfect knowledge, imperfect employees and changing goals. If you looked at my systems, you might say I am not following the principles but I was and am, they just don't alw…

I think what you might be getting at is that Dieter Rams is a great designer because he is a great designer.

Almost everyone agrees with all or most his design rules. I can agree all day but that doesn't mean I can execute my designs anywhere near as well as he did during his career.

Re: Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

#36

Post by mannykannot »

lbriner wrote: post #24

Prepares to be downvoted... Why are these supposed to be special? Everyone would agree with these in theory but the problem is not lack of these principles, the problem is how to actually use them in a fast moving business with imperfect tools, imperfect knowledge, imperfect employees and changing goals. If you looked at my systems, you might say I am not following the principles but I was and am, they just don't alw…

> Everyone would agree with these in theory...

Not me - when I read "Take a moment to step back and look at your code. It should look beautiful to you", my bullshit detector goes off full-tilt. The last person I want reviewing code is someone who wants to apply this principle (I don't so much care if they think this while writing code, if and only if it has no tangible downsides in what they produce.)

This is compounded with the following sentences "Beauty often embodies many useful properties. Code that pleases the eye is often readable, idiomatic, and expressive", as if pursuit of this undefined beauty causes these outcomes.

I am not sympathetic to arguments that this is true "in a sense", as this just adds subjectivity and circumlocution to an issue that should be, like good code itself, as straightforward and to-the-point as is possible while getting the job done.

Re: Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

#37

Post by tchalla »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #16
Y-bar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question. Are those people scorning you because you are thorough down to details, or because you are thorough down to details _at the cost of something else_?

Mostly because they assume that it's at the cost of schedule. In my case, that turns out not to be the case. I work very quickly. I can develop a fairly "full-fat" iOS app, with a lot of functionality, in less than a week. I do it all the time, with test harnesses. But getting the app to what I consider "ship" shape, is another matter entirely, and can stretch the project to a couple of months (which is still not so…

> Mostly because they assume that it's at the cost of schedule.

How can you change that assumption?

Re: Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

#38

Post by scns »

Uehreka wrote: post #32
scns wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At Apple? Maybe not. But elsewhere? Maybe no articles written about them but books or chapters ([0], [1]) written by them. In the spotlight? You betcha, i think watching talks by Brian Cantrill is highly entertaining. Rich Rickeys' talks are highly regarded on HN (making a mental note to watch them). Carmack talking at Quakecon for hours about many different things. (edit) formatting and links [0] https://www.amazon.…

> At Apple? Maybe not. Chris Lattner (inventor of LLVM and Swift) was pretty prominent when he was at Apple. He got stage time during at least one keynote and was well known in the macOS/iOS community. Not to mention that their engineering leads in general get to present their work every year to the devs who will be using it during the WWDC sessions.

Glad to be proven wrong! Learned some iOS development years ago but are out of touch what is happening in the appleverse at large, no snark intended.

Re: Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

#39

Post by scns »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #18
scns wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the coin has two sides. People that have the same mindset, appreciate when someone strives for perfection and creates somethimg really good. But i learning to be fine with 97% was very valuable too i think. It can get problematic when stuff needs to be delivered fast though. Finding the right niche is key i guess. Most people seem to be content with good enough and that is fine too. Diversity makes it fun someh…

Thanks so much! It's a labor of love, and I feel that makes all the difference. I like to think of what I do as a "craft."

You are more than welcome.

That is a great mindset IMHO, it makes a huge difference when you pour love into your work.

Re: Dieter Rams' design principles applied to software engineering

#40

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

tchalla wrote: post #37
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly because they assume that it's at the cost of schedule. In my case, that turns out not to be the case. I work very quickly. I can develop a fairly "full-fat" iOS app, with a lot of functionality, in less than a week. I do it all the time, with test harnesses. But getting the app to what I consider "ship" shape, is another matter entirely, and can stretch the project to a couple of months (which is still not so…

> Mostly because they assume that it's at the cost of schedule. How can you change that assumption?

The only way is the way that I've been forced to work, my entire life.

I'm a high school dropout with a GED, and some rather spotty tech training.

That means that I have had to fight, claw, and prove myself at every single step. No easy slopes for me. Double-black-diamond, the whole way. Very darwinian. Exhausting.

Fortunately, I don't have to prove myself to anyone, anymore. I am working with a bunch of folks that have known me for years, and are quite aware that I'm "for real." I don't make a dime, and don't really care. I enjoy the work.

Kind of a relief, really.

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