A generation of American men give up on college • Hacker News Board

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#31

Post by pwthornton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:29 AM UTC

phendrenad2 wrote: post #8

This is because in our society, it's more acceptable for men to drop out and get into some skilled trade, like plumbing or climbing telephone poles. People just won't accept that women can also do that. So there's a lot of pressure to make sure your female children go to college and get a degree.

People have to keep in mind that the trades have generally been pretty sexist and not all that professionally run. I would not want my daughters to go into most trades because of this.

It's a lot easier for men to find a decent paying job that doesn't require a college degree and where you won't get regularly harassed.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#32

Post by pwthornton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:34 AM UTC

mikewarot wrote: post #12

Unless you're going to be a Professional Engineer or some other licensed individual, or you're getting a free ride, college isn't worth it any more. Going deep into debt for a credential that doesn't have a reasonably large future value is a huge mistake many are pushed into making.

This is just not borne out by the data. The gap between high school grads and college grads pay is getting wider and wider.

You shouldn't go to college if you aren't going to be a serious student and you'll be a legitimate risk for dropping out. But if you are willing to commit yourself and get decent grades, you'll be in much better shape than most people with just a high school diploma.

Your advice is also sounds really out of touch with what various jobs pay. The average new college grad makes like 60k or so.

I can only speak to my workplace and team, but we pay product designers with very little experience around 90k a year. I have no licenses and am not a professional engineer, and I make several times that.

The issue is that far too many people are going into debt for college degrees and not getting the degrees. That's the biggest. The secondary issue is that college is becoming more and more expensive, but it is still paying off for the majority of bachelor degree holders.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#33

Post by pwthornton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:38 AM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #29

PaulHoule wrote: post #2

I went to pick up a book at the circulation desk at my uni close to the first day of classes and of the people in front of me and in back of me there were 9 girls and 0 boys in line. If the class were gender-balanced the odds of that would be 1/512; I have no idea what it means ("girls are much more interested in using the library?") but I think it's significant.

It is interesting; disregarding nitpicking about the calculation there could be multiple potential reasons that all are connected to the heart of the matter: - women more likely to study and solve logistical study problems together - men more likely to pirate books - men less likely to be out during normal hours - men less likely to choose majors requiring library books - and of course, higher college enrollment by w…

I'd say seeing a 9-0 ratio is an outlier for sure, and maybe we don't need much deeper thought than that. I do, suspect, however, that women are more likely to go to the library than men. My assumption on this is the higher grades that female students earn on average.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#34

Post by pwthornton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:40 AM UTC

chuckee wrote: post #30

frankbreetz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am having trouble coming up with a single high paying, no degree required job that is majority female. Please let me know if I am missing some.

It does not need to be majority female - I'd say 30% female is more than enough to consider a job being accepting of women. But okay: "The average Plumber salary in the United States is $58,659" - https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/plumber-sal... "The national average salary for Human Resources is $65,314 per year in United States." - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/human-resources-salary-SR... "Forb…

Does the average HR manager not have a college degree?

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#35

Post by pwthornton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:43 AM UTC

frankbreetz wrote: post #10

On the other side: A stat shared at my most recent tech companies meeting, they are trying to hire more women. 5000 people applied for a single position and 15 of them were women. This was for a high paying tech job.

One thing I am starting to wonder about is if there is a systematic guidance counseling failing in high schools and colleges. There are so many well paying tech jobs that we just aren't getting that many candidates for. Forget not having a great gender ratio, it is often hard to find a lot of candidates for my openings. If I can't offer sponsorship, it can take awhile

There clearly seems to be a lot more knowledge in some countries about which jobs lead to high paying careers, and the U.S. still has an antiquated mindset about this.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#36

Post by pwthornton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:46 AM UTC

torstenvl wrote: post #21

albntomat0 wrote: post #16

“Over the course of their working lives, American college graduates earn more than a million dollars beyond those with only a high-school diploma, and a university diploma is required for many jobs as well as most professions, technical work and positions of influence.” From the article. There are folks getting useless degrees and/or taking on too much debt, but getting a college degree on the whole is worthwhile.

Far too many variables to draw any clear conclusions, in my opinion. Have there been any of these studies that show the effect holding constant when controlling for high school GPA, SAT/ACT, and IQ?

A huge chunk of well paying jobs literally require at least a bachelors degree, and you can't submit your SAT scores instead.

I think we can say it is in fact causal that on average a college degree earns more money than not having one just by this fact alone.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#37

Post by pwthornton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:49 AM UTC

The thing that struck me right off the bat was that the lead photo of this story is of 18-year-old with a PS5 and pretty sweet setup in his bedroom. I don't have anything deep to add to this, but if you can sit at home in your childhood bedroom indefinitely playing video games and working menial jobs, maybe the allure is there.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#38

Post by effingwewt » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #37

The thing that struck me right off the bat was that the lead photo of this story is of 18-year-old with a PS5 and pretty sweet setup in his bedroom. I don't have anything deep to add to this, but if you can sit at home in your childhood bedroom indefinitely playing video games and working menial jobs, maybe the allure is there.

I mean of the choice is between that and crippling debt and a useless degree, he's making the objectively smart move.

The fact that they were able to buy things while living at home just drives the point home even more- he would not have the disposable income to make those purchases for many years if he decides to go to college.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#39

Post by spaceflunky » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 4:10 AM UTC

phendrenad2 wrote: post #8

This is because in our society, it's more acceptable for men to drop out and get into some skilled trade, like plumbing or climbing telephone poles. People just won't accept that women can also do that. So there's a lot of pressure to make sure your female children go to college and get a degree.

> like plumbing or climbing telephone poles. People just won't accept that women can also do that.

You sure about that? Or is it that the majority of women don't see themselves unclogging toilets for a living? I have never seen it, but I would suspect list of female applications to plumbing or electrician school is very very short.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#40

Post by sumgocko » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 4:25 AM UTC

frankbreetz wrote: post #27

chuckee wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. And there's no non-college educated professions where women are prevalent? It's plumbing or bust? Of course clearly when women were under-represented in college, that was due to misogyny. And now that they are over-represented, it's also due to misogyny. No matter what the facts are, the conclusion is the same. There's a word for that.

I am having trouble coming up with a single high paying, no degree required job that is majority female. Please let me know if I am missing some.

Pornstar :)