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Is a self-driving car smarter than a seven-month-old?

economist.com

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Re: Is a self-driving car smarter than a seven-month-old?

#31
post #7
post #3

I have only access to the pre-paywall excerpt, but what I can read does not endear me to pay for more. > This understanding, of “object permanence”, is a normal developmental milestone, as well as a basic tenet of reality. It is also something that self-driving cars do not have. That is just simply false. Nearly every team we heard technical details from has a “tracking subsystem” which integrates observations across…

> Nearly every team we heard technical details from has a “tracking subsystem” which integrates observations across time and sensor modalities. That’s not object permanence, that’s tracking the same object across multiple frames and tracking it as a single object. The below is part of the abstract for a paper “Learning to Track with Object Permanence” released this year that describes the difference between current t…

I hear that definition, but in terms of computer science this is not a categorical difference but one on a scale.

Clearly every tracking has to be able to re-localise among frames, otherwise it is not tracking. If you want to make a robust tracking you aim that it won't loose track even if the object is lost or obscured for a few second. These are all tuning parameters and questions of scenario. If you have a strong track of a vehicle with lots of evidence and you have strong priors about the road layout then the vehicle can disappear behind a bus for hours and you will still maintain the information that it is there. If you have a fleeting noisy observation about one pedestrian, and you don't really have a strong motion model about them (Because oh horror, pedestrians sometimes enter unmapped buildings and don't follow strict lanes!) then you might delete their track within seconds after they disappear.

So tracking creates information about objects, and how permanent they are is a tuning parameter. Some companies under some circumstances can choose to make the objects very permanent, some different companies or the same company under different circumstances can have very fleeting objects.

Given this, how much information would you need about the state of every single self driving system to write down a sentence like this confidently: "For a self-driving car, a bicycle that is momentarily hidden by a passing van is a bicycle that has ceased to exist."

I would be cautious writing such a sweeping generalisation even about bakeries and bread making, and that's a technology which has been practiced for thousands of years.

Here is what the author of the article could have done: Pick a specific failure of a specific self driving project and say "sometimes self driving cars struggle with object permanence. " It's not like you have to go far for an example. One of the root causes of the Elaine Herzberg accident was the car's inability to match her track among observations.

Re: Is a self-driving car smarter than a seven-month-old?

#32
post #7
post #3

I have only access to the pre-paywall excerpt, but what I can read does not endear me to pay for more. > This understanding, of “object permanence”, is a normal developmental milestone, as well as a basic tenet of reality. It is also something that self-driving cars do not have. That is just simply false. Nearly every team we heard technical details from has a “tracking subsystem” which integrates observations across…

> Nearly every team we heard technical details from has a “tracking subsystem” which integrates observations across time and sensor modalities. That’s not object permanence, that’s tracking the same object across multiple frames and tracking it as a single object. The below is part of the abstract for a paper “Learning to Track with Object Permanence” released this year that describes the difference between current t…

I don't know how the various car teams implement them currently, but I find it hard to believe that this is some novel or SOTA approach for them. Kalman filtering and state space models are explicit object permanence models for tracking objects (relying on the physical location/velocity model to track object locations when observations are missing), used since the 1960s, and that pretty standard material in engineering courses on navigation.

Re: Is a self-driving car smarter than a seven-month-old?

#36
post #34
post #27

A dog is smarter than a 7-month old. Maybe dogs could drive cars after all.

Oooh lets rewrite dog firmware and just put the brain in the car No that's too cruel, cluster up some rats

Or just like, design some controls that work for its anatomy and give it a treat when you get to your destination. Then it can get out and you can play fetch.

Re: Is a self-driving car smarter than a seven-month-old?

#37
Having literally just yesterday ridden in a bumper car driven by my 5 year old, I can safely say I'd rather let my Tesla drive. And I don't even have the full Self Driving beta, I just have "enhanced autopilot"

There is more to self-driving than "Object Permanence", it's a bit of a false equivalency. My 5 year old can recognize letters / ABCs better than car... still wouldn't want her to drive.

Is FSD perfect? Absolutely not. I know some people who use it don't see it this way but I see it more as augmenting my driving than replacing me. For now, at least. But a 7 month old would have a negative impact on my driving.

Re: Is a self-driving car smarter than a seven-month-old?

#38
post #10

I think it should be obvious to most of us that intelligence is a combination of statistical learning, tree search, and the kind of generalized knowledge about the physical world the article is talking about. I don't believe any of the three components alone can excel at any meaningful or interesting task. ML can play go, but can't fold clothes, isn't it absurd? Going back to self-driving, the main challenge on the r…

> Really, where is this enthusiasm around ML coming from? Same as most other "enthusiasm" in this industry: HYPE! Everything from self-driving to machine learning, TypeScript, React, Containers and everything in between is driven by hype, that is usually supported by huge companies investing in marketing to create said hype. Once the ball is rolling, it'll keep on rolling until people realize they got got, then we al…

Hype to some - but without any hype, ANN are entities that show huge potential, are a still fresh, explored only for a fragment territory after so many decades, and present very intriguing mysteries in the translation between a network snapshot and the encoded knowledge.

So, an area fully deserving interest.

Of course the enthusiasm brings a lot of unduly expectation, unfruitful trial and errors etc. - just normal expectable accompaniments. They are not the most important phenomenon, unless the interest is posed for the wrong reasons (industrial implementations pretending the technology is a universal solution).

By the way: "hype cycles" have occurred many times in the history of AI. All experience for collection.

Re: Is a self-driving car smarter than a seven-month-old?

#39
post #10

I think it should be obvious to most of us that intelligence is a combination of statistical learning, tree search, and the kind of generalized knowledge about the physical world the article is talking about. I don't believe any of the three components alone can excel at any meaningful or interesting task. ML can play go, but can't fold clothes, isn't it absurd? Going back to self-driving, the main challenge on the r…

> Going back to self-driving, the main challenge on the roads seems to be the fact that anything or anyone can suddenly appear on the road in front of the car. It can be a drunk person, a slow animal (or a fast one), it can be a huge but empty cardboard box, or it can be a fridge in cardboard packaging left on the road for whatever stupid reason. The possibilities are almost literally infinite. A good FSD system should be able to assess, try to make a good prediction of the behavior (it's kind of OK to hit an empty box if I don't want to cause much discomfort to my passengers, but not OK to hit a fridge).

How does a human driver determine if the box they are looking at is empty or has a fridge in it? How many times has there been no way to get to your destination without ramming refrigerator boxes? How often do you even find yourself pondering whether you should ram a box?

A good FSD system need only distinguish between obstacles to the degree that it can predict if the obstacle will remove itself or if it will need to find an alternate route, with the latter being a safe default assumption. Claiming an FSD system needs to do something even a human can't do is just moving the goal posts.

Re: Is a self-driving car smarter than a seven-month-old?

#40
post #4

https://archive.is/Mne8h

Thank you. In the recent weeks I was considering to subscribe to the economist. But if this is the quality of their writing on a subject I can judge then I would rather not poison my mind with articles from them which I have no expertise over.

I wouldn’t judge all their articles by this one. Bear in mind this is not their core area of expertise, they are going to over simplify and make some mistakes. Generally, I find their core stuff in economics and politics to be insightful and thought provoking even if in my subject domain (medicine) they make some mistakes.
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