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In goodbye message, Chaillan unloads over DoD’s technology culture, processes

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Re: In goodbye message, Chaillan unloads over DoD’s technology culture, processes

#31
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be funny if the DoD is attached to waterfall still. The entire organizing principle of modern US warfare is as fast and adaptive a battlefield loop as possible for: get information -> adapt strategy -> deliver orders. I believe it goes back to Napoleon, who basically conquered all of Europe using those principles and superior organization.

The whole F-35 is a waterfall project gone horribly, horribly wrong, then eventually shipping without most problems being addressed.

Lockheed called that process "Spiral". (which DOES have some features of Agile; because development is iterative).

Now; aircraft are very different than software. You don't go and manufacture 1000 birds based on a partially completed design. So there's that.

The other important thing to note is the F-35 concept was meant to address the sharply rising costs of building warplanes. By taking advantage of "economies of scale" in manufacturing, to build a multi-purpose plane that all three services could use. (so instead of building say; 100 of one design for the USAF, 100 of a completely different design for the Navy, 100 of a third design for the Marines, they'd build 300 planes - but manufacture variants off the same assembly line.) Adding to that scale was the baked-in "deal" to get NATO partners to commit to buying these planes as well. In that regard, it was kind of a stunning success (that they're actually serviceable; even if all three variants have shortcomings due to engineering trade-offs made for this manufacturing flexibility). At the end of the day, there were flaws that arose in the concept; like, the main central titanium bulkhead, which turned out to be FAR more costly to manufacture than was revealed when they built the prototypes. They just kind of "hoped" that the process for that part would end up being cheaper when scaled. And it wasn't cheaper-enough.

This makes is sufficiently different to the software development process discussion, that I think it's really an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Re: In goodbye message, Chaillan unloads over DoD’s technology culture, processes

#32
post #14
post #5

> Living in Maryland, I've met several young people who put in a few years at the agency (including TAO) who then left for industry. Millenials don't care about a government pension, especially when you're in a windowless SCIF hacking Perl. > The US Government as a whole has a massive talent retention problem. Only the mediocre will stay at NSA / CIA now and we'll probably see more of these leaks / hacks. That's a ve…

The US Government doesn't believe that inflation exists and also doesn't believe that a software engineer or similar professional should make more than 170k per year in the DC metro (GS-13) with 10+ years of experience. This is only 15% higher pay than 10 years ago, meanwhile home prices are up 3x in the DC metro area.

USG's bigger problem is that they don't know how to manage software talent or software project ecosystems, than the actual pay.

As long as things continue the way they are you wouldn't be able to convince me to code for USG for any price once I retire in a few years. If anything USG has inspiring enough missions that they should be able to attract and retain talent at a discount, compared to optimizing ad click throughs for companies selling sugar water.

Re: In goodbye message, Chaillan unloads over DoD’s technology culture, processes

#33
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as water-agile-fail at first. Made more sense. I think most of my experience with "agile" has been: we'll make a vague plan that came from god-knows-where, you'll do lots of releases, testers will test incrementally, you'll update us once a week, and at the end we'll release it and you'll do it all again when the users tell us they don't like it or (more likely) when management goes on a new whim. It turned…

It would be funny if the DoD is attached to waterfall still. The entire organizing principle of modern US warfare is as fast and adaptive a battlefield loop as possible for: get information -> adapt strategy -> deliver orders. I believe it goes back to Napoleon, who basically conquered all of Europe using those principles and superior organization.

> It would be funny if the DoD is attached to waterfall still.

Still? It's been that way for some time, unfortunately.

You're right that the operational military has long been different and much more flexible. Indeed it's quite annoying seeing agile consultants in the private sector refer to the military as examples of agility! Because that's true on the front lines but it is decided not true at the headquarters level.

Re: In goodbye message, Chaillan unloads over DoD’s technology culture, processes

#34

> There are 100,000 software developers in the DoD. We are the largest software organization on the planet, Tata Consultancy Services, India employs more than 500,000 people. They manage the IT stack of companies from Walgreens to Ferrari. I'm not the person to nitpick, But I'm particularly proud of TCS's employment figures because I've personally witnessed many move from being poor to wealthy(by Indian standards) af…

I attended an interview with them once. (I think it was for one of their clients; American Express). It started in a large conference room, where I was one of about 200 other people. Weirdest interview ever, and also totally inappropriate for my skillset - due to the recruiter not giving a crap, apparently.

Yes, Head count > Quality in this type of companies. Don't expect FAANG level work here although they do handle projects from FAANG as well(B2B front-end type work).

Anyone with full-stack experience(gained outside office work, because IT workers in these companies are typically struck with single programming language/framework) would have already moved on from TCS, Infosys, CTS type companies to a well-funded startup.

Pandemic has increased the highly skilled IT job salaries exponentially in India, DevOps personnel with 8 years experience can earn (1.15Cr INR ~ 157K USD) in India[1].

[1] https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trends/in-the-wild-world-o...

Re: In goodbye message, Chaillan unloads over DoD’s technology culture, processes

#35
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole F-35 is a waterfall project gone horribly, horribly wrong, then eventually shipping without most problems being addressed.

Lockheed called that process "Spiral". (which DOES have some features of Agile; because development is iterative). Now; aircraft are very different than software. You don't go and manufacture 1000 birds based on a partially completed design. So there's that. The other important thing to note is the F-35 concept was meant to address the sharply rising costs of building warplanes. By taking advantage of "economies of s…

Thanks for the great comment!

I am hard pressed to consider its development spiral (which requires frequent releases, if not as frequent as Agile). With an aircraft you really don't iterate on airframes the way you might even with OS releases.

> This makes is sufficiently different to the software development process discussion, that I think it's really an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Despite the prime's assertion that it was "spiral", really it was in the end a classic waterfall as I said. But you make a better point: is there really any other way with a mechanical device (especially as demanding a one as an aircraft)?

We do see coarse iterations with various adaptations of aircraft that change length, power plant etc (consider all the versions of 747, 737, A350, et al). It's a stretch to try to consider that spiral, much less agile. The iterations are slow, comprehensive (involving much interconnection) and not really back compatible. More like OS/360 releases (which is the origin of the waterfall metaphor).

I do remember the objective of the program, but it wasn't really grasped adequately (composable elements), a point I think you are making. And there was no feedback in the development process; rather the opposite, with Lockheed given essentially a blank check. The Clinton military-industrial-complex restructuring has a lot to answer for.

Re: In goodbye message, Chaillan unloads over DoD’s technology culture, processes

#36
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who’s getting pensions in government? I thought they were all 401k now.

I don't know of any federal government 401k; everyone gets a "pension", it's called FERS (Federal Employees' Retirement System) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Employees_Retirement_S...

It doesn’t cover as many as you may expect.

Re: In goodbye message, Chaillan unloads over DoD’s technology culture, processes

#37
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US Government doesn't believe that inflation exists and also doesn't believe that a software engineer or similar professional should make more than 170k per year in the DC metro (GS-13) with 10+ years of experience. This is only 15% higher pay than 10 years ago, meanwhile home prices are up 3x in the DC metro area.

A maxed out GS-13 (step 10) runs 130-140k depending on locality, which is new grad range for private sector tech companies. GS-15 hits the 170k threshold, but it’s rare to find technical, non-management roles at that level. (Source: The OPM pay tables for localities are publicly available, and I was a software engineer for a DoD agency for 10 years.)

170 was for the dc location, which carries a 30% CoL adjustment.

Re: In goodbye message, Chaillan unloads over DoD’s technology culture, processes

#38
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A maxed out GS-13 (step 10) runs 130-140k depending on locality, which is new grad range for private sector tech companies. GS-15 hits the 170k threshold, but it’s rare to find technical, non-management roles at that level. (Source: The OPM pay tables for localities are publicly available, and I was a software engineer for a DoD agency for 10 years.)

170 was for the dc location, which carries a 30% CoL adjustment.

I'm still not sure where you're getting 170. The max base for GS-13 is step 10 at $103,309. Adding 30% is nowhere near 170. At the upper end of GS-13 in San Diego (29.77% locality), I was making low to mid 130s. Are you including recruitment/retention incentives?
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