Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels • Hacker News Board

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#31

Post by DoingIsLearning » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

pdabbadabba wrote: post #8

neom wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"HEPA filters capture pollen, dirt, dust, moisture, bacteria (0.2-2.0 μm), virus (0.02-0.3 μm), and submicron liquid aerosol (0.02-0.5 μm).[8][9][10] Some microorganisms, for example, Aspergillus niger, Penicillium citrinum, Staphylococcus epidermidis, and Bacillus subtilis are captured by HEPA filters with photocatalytic oxidation (PCO). HEPA is also able to capture some viruses and bacteria which are ≤0.3 μm." "Ele…

For those uninterested in digesting these details, the upshot of this seems to be: Yes. HEPA filters should capture these. Edit: Though perhaps inefficiently. See the replies below.

Hold on, that is very much the opposite of my interpretation.

HEPA filters are typically designed with 0.3μm pores this is mostly a legacy of medical applications (i.e. to guarantee they catch bacteria).

Submicron performance (The PFAS is a group of substances, the article is specifically talking about 6:2 FTOH (one of many PFAS substances) that is found in carpets etc.

6:2 FTOH specifically is a sub-micron compound, from the GP article the closest particle to it is PFOA which is To answer GGP question, a high MERV rating filter will probably catch some of these compounds but not the totality. Open your windows frequently (if outside air pollution allows wherever you live) and make sure you understand what products you have in your house.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#32

Post by colechristensen » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

nate_meurer wrote: post #13

slumdev wrote: post #7

My takeaways: 1. Open the windows as often as weather allows. 2. Don't use nonstick pans unless they're cast iron or some kind of fired enamel. 3. Use a water purifier.

There are no mobile PFAS chemicals in nonstick cookware. Nonstick coatings are made from PTFE, which is a completely inert polymer that cannot be broken down into mobile components unless it's overheated. The fluorinated chemicals used in the manufacture of the coatings (largely surfactants) are completely removed when the coating is baked on, and they have to be or else the coating would fail. PTFE is used in medica…

PTFE burns at high but commonly achieved cooking temperatures, the result is a fine particulate in the air. You have to be careful (and many aren’t) to only use nonstick for low to medium temperature cooking.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#33

Post by ashildr » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

strict9 wrote: post #15

chamsom wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your clothing is waterproof or has some kind of exercise "moisture wicking" material, it is common to have PFAS.

An absurd challenge: walk to into a target or some other large retail store and try to find mens briefs that do not have moisture wicking treatment. It feels like I'm in a strange dystopia trying to find undergarments not treated with some sort of PFAS additives.

This is really strange - I’m in Germany and I hear for the first time that underwear is treated like this.

None of the brand I wear (HOM) seem to be and I don’t remember that being mentioned on any pack of underwear I purchased the last 40 years.

Is it an US thing?

(and yes, I’m posting about my underwear on hacker news. weird.)

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#34

Post by BitwiseFool » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

chamsom wrote: post #16

California law TB117 required fire retardant foam until 2015 so a lot of couches have PFAS. This is an example of creating a problem by trying to avoiding another. Of course, this is not to single out CA as this is a global problem. Could be wrong but it seems like the general rule is that manufacturers are allowed to "experiment in public" when it comes to chemical science. PFAS alternatives are already in the wild…

I don't want flame retardants in my products. I suspect most of these requirements came from the era when a lot more people smoked. Sure, put flame retardants in oven mitts and things that will reasonably catch fire, rather than things like pillowcases.

Even still, how common were couch fires 20+ years ago when flame based (non-vaping) smoking was so much more common?

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#35

Post by GuB-42 » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

q_andrew wrote: post #4

This contributes to the theory that PFAS is affecting ambient obesity rates in the modern world: https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/26/a-chemical-hunger-p...

It may be a contributor but there are so many "obvious" things that cause obesity in the modern world that a paper needs really strong arguments with a rigorous statistical analysis with confounding factors in order to draw conclusions.

The obvious include: high availability of energy-rich, cheap food, lower amount of physical activity, food designed to be addictive (usually with lots of sugar),...

There is also a strong correlation between obesity and low socioeconomic status, that can be also explained by "obvious" factors, like irregular meals, less physical activity, cheap, energy-rich, nutrient-poor food and poor education regarding healthy habits.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#36

Post by ashildr » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

_bfhp wrote: post #5

I can't stomach the science "journalism" here. Most of the statements about the research is that studies "found" the chemicals here or there. Ok, I can "find" various sources of cancer-related radiation in my sock drawer. Particularly annoying: "It found particularly high levels in several kindergarten classrooms and also checked the supply room of an outdoor clothing store, offices, several university classrooms, un…

Yes, this is disappointing.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#37

Post by someguy321 » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

nate_meurer wrote: post #13

slumdev wrote: post #7

My takeaways: 1. Open the windows as often as weather allows. 2. Don't use nonstick pans unless they're cast iron or some kind of fired enamel. 3. Use a water purifier.

There are no mobile PFAS chemicals in nonstick cookware. Nonstick coatings are made from PTFE, which is a completely inert polymer that cannot be broken down into mobile components unless it's overheated. The fluorinated chemicals used in the manufacture of the coatings (largely surfactants) are completely removed when the coating is baked on, and they have to be or else the coating would fail. PTFE is used in medica…

I think PTFE pans are overheated more often than we expect.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#38

Post by kaitai » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

nate_meurer wrote: post #13

slumdev wrote: post #7

My takeaways: 1. Open the windows as often as weather allows. 2. Don't use nonstick pans unless they're cast iron or some kind of fired enamel. 3. Use a water purifier.

There are no mobile PFAS chemicals in nonstick cookware. Nonstick coatings are made from PTFE, which is a completely inert polymer that cannot be broken down into mobile components unless it's overheated. The fluorinated chemicals used in the manufacture of the coatings (largely surfactants) are completely removed when the coating is baked on, and they have to be or else the coating would fail. PTFE is used in medica…

People "overheat" their cookware all the time. Do you know anyone who measures the temp of the surface of their cookware?

Teflon and nonstick coatings kill birds (house pets) when overheated. A nonstick pan in the oven to catch the drippings from your chicken baking at 400 or 425 can kill your parrot quickly. A nonstick wok left unattended for a few minutes during a high-heat stir fry easily reaches 400, enough to kill your cockatiel.

And as another poster has noted, those coatings always start flaking off.

Why buy something that produces fumes enough to kill your house pets and also has planned obsolescence built in when you can get a cast iron pan that's indestructible and will increase your iron intake a bit? It's not hard to develop a great seasoning on it that's essentially non-stick. I use cast iron for almost everything, and enamel for a few remaining applications.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#39

Post by strict9 » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

ashildr wrote: post #33

strict9 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An absurd challenge: walk to into a target or some other large retail store and try to find mens briefs that do not have moisture wicking treatment. It feels like I'm in a strange dystopia trying to find undergarments not treated with some sort of PFAS additives.

This is really strange - I’m in Germany and I hear for the first time that underwear is treated like this. None of the brand I wear (HOM) seem to be and I don’t remember that being mentioned on any pack of underwear I purchased the last 40 years. Is it an US thing? (and yes, I’m posting about my underwear on hacker news. weird.)

It is strange! It's a recent thing in the US, yes. Probably in the past 4-5 years nearly all major brands put some sort of special chemical that gives it 'moisture wicking' (usually in partnership with Dow or 3M).

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#40

Post by doitLP » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 3:34 PM UTC

The problem is not PFAS. It is extreme regulatory capture that got us to the this point. Even if we ban PFAS tomorrow, there are other alternatives that will be used and another 2 decades of lies and cover ups before we find out what harm those chemicals have.

Example: look at what happened when BPAs harms became known. Manufacturers switched to using any of the other 40 chemicals in the same bisphenol family (BPS, etc) many of which had even worse safety profiles, while proudly proclaiming their products were "BPA free".

We need to flip the approval process on its head -- from "safe until proven otherwise" to "unsafe until (independently) proven safe". The tally of harm to all life caused by these chemicals is on a massive scale that any mass murderer would be proud of.