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How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

foreignpolicy.com

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Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#31

Post by forensic »

jackfoxy wrote: post #11
wallflower wrote: post #4

If you have not read "What is China", read it after: http://www.tapsns.com/blog/index.php/2010/01/what-is-china/

Would really like folks who down-voted you to explain themselves. The fact China (and Russia) are the only supports of North Korea says everything you need to know about the essence of the rulers of both countries.

Well, someone needs to be friends with NK. I don't think China leaning on NK could really help there. NK would just get more isolated. The solution to North Korea is to stop scaring them so that they will come out of their shell a bit.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#33

Post by eridius »

w1ntermute wrote: post #24
buddylw wrote: post #13

I am no fan of Apple - mainly for their closed architecture, but I am also a cold-hearted economist when it comes to these types issues and this article is a bit of a one sided hit piece. I would like to throw in a few counterpoints so we can all maintain a proper context. 1.) When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and op…

> When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and operation of every vendor. It's one thing to have occasional issues of the sort. It's a completely different matter to be so bad at preventing these problems that you're ranked dead last amongst international IT companies in China. Apple's famous perfection clearly only applies…

Yeah, and PETA routinely ranks Apple very low in their reports (even immediately after praising them for their green efforts on whatever the newest product is at the time). They do this because it gets media attention. I have no idea what this group is that tracks pollution reports, and no reason to expect that they're a fair and impartial body that is portraying a completely accurate picture in their reports.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#34

Post by temphn »

cageface wrote: post #23
curt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Apple wanted to the regulations surrounding manufacturing, especially on a large scale are crazy. Can't tell you how many operations are moving overseas not because of the labor costs but because of the bureaucracy, paperwork, EPA, and regulations in the US.

The endgame of all this could be that no country anywhere can enforce any environmental or labor laws because corporations will just move somewhere more desperate for jobs.

The thing is that there's an optimal amount of such laws. Not too little, not too much. If businesses couldn't move, there'd be no pressure to junk bad laws. Also, the fact that a business can move from a community is a good thing, as otherwise people forget that regulations and taxes can only be increased to a certain point before killing the golden goose.

Finally, there aren't a finite number of businesses; those who think the EPA's regulations are reasonable should have no problem starting a US business to demonstrate the point.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#35

Post by yardie »

cubicle67 wrote: post #14
martythemaniak wrote: post #2

I think it's unfortunate that Apple chooses to not build it's hardware in the US, or model its manufacturing on Germany's successful mid-size firms. Apple makes and builds high-end products and has the fat margins that goes along with it - instead of outsourcing all manufacturing to China, it could choose to build everything in the US, employ the locals and use that as a selling point. If I pay premium dollar for qua…

(australian here) counter-point first: I've heard good things about Sears stuff, but it's not available here I've never considered American manufacturing to be high quality or premium. My experience is mostly based on American cars - which tend to have appalling build quality and reliability - and a few "made in America" bits I have, all of which are pretty average. I tend to associate American manufacturing with thi…

American here. Most of American things of quality you wouldn't be able to buy in a consumer version. You can tell the quality of a product by the warranty that is assigned to it. For example most of the Sears Kenmore stuff have something like 10 year warranties. The Craftsman tools have a lifetime warranty.

Most of the American bits never really leave the US because logistics cost the same everywhere. A big heavy washing machine from china loses its cost advantage once shipping and duties are added to the price. A high-end laptop has most of the price in labor and parts. Shipping costs next to nothing for it.

American cars haven't really impressed me. For a while I also questionned the quality; why settle for something with a 3 year warranty when the japanese and koreans have 7 and 10 years. I believe the American car makers have learned a lot about this after getting trounced in the market. They have been extending there warranties and covering parts that weren't covered before.

But it's not until you get into the really high-tech stuff that American builds even show up. Like 7-10 layer circuit boards, aerospace equipment, military hardware, and extreme environment hardware. To put it another way, the Americans, Japanese, and Germans sell the equipment to China to build the stuff they sell.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#36

Post by alexbowman »

buddylw wrote: post #13

I am no fan of Apple - mainly for their closed architecture, but I am also a cold-hearted economist when it comes to these types issues and this article is a bit of a one sided hit piece. I would like to throw in a few counterpoints so we can all maintain a proper context. 1.) When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and op…

Hello economist. Jack of all trades here. I agree it seems like a one-sided piece. But. Apple can very clearly know what happens in its vendors, it simply has to look in a very clever way. It has to run a very black black ops. Most multinationals don't do this, they take the word of these vendors literally.

A simple metric: ask the senior management questions that have clear quantified answers. If they, or if anyone reading this that has an outsourced operation, cannot answer that, then outsourcing is being done either badly or astoundingly badly.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#37

Post by m_eiman »

forensic wrote: post #30
naner wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As bad as a 3rd world outsourced job is to us 1st worlder's it's still generally BETTER than what they would have otherwise. In fact Apple and other 'outsourcers' are the one and only reason for the breath-taking trend line that is China's per capita growth This always seemed like a bullshit argument to me. So it is marginally better to work 16 hour days in terrible conditions while dumping chemicals in local groundw…

We can't save the world. Even if our entire country voted for it, we could not save the Chinese from their own policies. They are adults living in a sovereign nation; they are responsible for their own working conditions. I'm not going to feel white-guilt for stuff that happens in a foreign country over which I have zero control.

Even if our entire country voted for it, we could not save the Chinese from their own policies.

Vote with your wallet. If nobody will buy products produced using awful methods, they will no longer be produced that way. It's quite simple. Then you'll say "But everyone else is buying them, so it doesn't matter if I do it too". To which I say "Don't care about what others are doing, just do the right thing yourself".

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#38

Post by berntb »

naner wrote: post #19
buddylw wrote: post #13

I am no fan of Apple - mainly for their closed architecture, but I am also a cold-hearted economist when it comes to these types issues and this article is a bit of a one sided hit piece. I would like to throw in a few counterpoints so we can all maintain a proper context. 1.) When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and op…

As bad as a 3rd world outsourced job is to us 1st worlder's it's still generally BETTER than what they would have otherwise. In fact Apple and other 'outsourcers' are the one and only reason for the breath-taking trend line that is China's per capita growth This always seemed like a bullshit argument to me. So it is marginally better to work 16 hour days in terrible conditions while dumping chemicals in local groundw…

>>Well, it turns out that overworking people and polluting is still bad behaviour.

I usually give this link at this point. http://www.slate.com/id/1918/

Krugman discuss, well, why you are a judging hypocr.. cough, a bit harsh. :-)

Edit: Let me put it this way. A millennia ago, my ancestors made today's Afghanistan look like a cosy and peaceful place. Now, it is a bit different -- a welfare state where there haven't been war for a couple of centuries. Both situations are inside the range of human behaviour/nature. The trick is to organise things so society works and so that it gets better over time. So few ways of doing things really works, so it is a bit funny when you complain about just those, from a moral perspective.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#39

Post by tomjen3 »

naner wrote: post #19
buddylw wrote: post #13

I am no fan of Apple - mainly for their closed architecture, but I am also a cold-hearted economist when it comes to these types issues and this article is a bit of a one sided hit piece. I would like to throw in a few counterpoints so we can all maintain a proper context. 1.) When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and op…

As bad as a 3rd world outsourced job is to us 1st worlder's it's still generally BETTER than what they would have otherwise. In fact Apple and other 'outsourcers' are the one and only reason for the breath-taking trend line that is China's per capita growth This always seemed like a bullshit argument to me. So it is marginally better to work 16 hour days in terrible conditions while dumping chemicals in local groundw…

This is the way every society goes - Milton Friedman pointed out when confronted with how horrible living in the cities at the time of Charles Dickens was that the reason people moved to the cities was that it was far worse in the countryside.

Also the reason companies outsource isn't to provide the workers with great work environments (that may or may not happen) but to save money.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#40

Post by tomjen3 »

technoslut wrote: post #17
olalonde wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple makes and builds high-end products and has the fat margins that goes along with it - instead of outsourcing all manufacturing to China, it could choose to build everything in the US, employ the locals and use that as a selling point. Why do you assume Americans are more deserving of Apple's manufacturing jobs than the Chinese? > If I pay premium dollar for quality and durability, I would rather that support l…

I do think that Americans are more deserving of products being produced here. I've always felt (maybe others do not) that you give back something to where you grew up or the society you are apart of. I see it no different in this case. Sony has done the same in Japan and I respect them more for it. There are great benefits to the US market and many, such as Apple, have taken advantage of it. They also take advantage…

I don't know about you as you grew up in the US but I didn't (I have never been there) but I feel closer to it than I do about my own country.

But when I really look at it, I don't feel connected to any country as much as to history and the ideals of Silicon Valley.

So to me it seems to weird to hold the place I was born as anything special.

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