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An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

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Re: An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

#31
post #23
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Germans speaking their own language in their own country is now xenophobic? (referring to your first paragraph) It‘s true that with the exception of big companies or certain industries much German is spoken at work. Exactly like Spanish in Spain, French in France, Italian in Italy or Portuguese in Portugal. I‘m German myself, mostly living outside Germany. I try to fit in as good as possible, including making an e…

Xenophobia has been an increasing concern in Europe in the last 10 years and nobody wants to admin it. There are "new-nazi" movement in Greece and Germany for example which of course target (not only but mostly) immigrants. I guess is totally disconnected from the language discussion.

Golden Dawn in Greece and AFD in Germany (although it should be noted that AFD is not quite the same. GD would be equal to NPD or similar). Both have about 10% of the vote more or less to give you an idea of the size.

This is one of the most widely discussed political topics here and has been since at least 2013. I don‘t see how „nobody wants to admit it“.

The Green party was recently at 30% and is now at 18%. The social democrats + liberal + green party are currently at 53% - all decidedly not xenophobic. (source: sonntagsfrage.de)

The fact that a right-wing party exists is normal in a democracy. We should keep in mind that the Republican Party is in many ways more right-wing than AFD. And it‘s far bigger. The German conservative party is in many ways left of the Democratic party in the US. The social democrats and the Green party would be completely unthinkable there right now.

(I‘m voting for the Green party.)

Re: An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

#32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Germans that know English refusing to speak to people that only know English and Pashto is xenophobic. I saw that many times in Germany (mostly in Munich), people refusing to talk to you in English even if they knew the language.

Can you please describe the situation? Are you saying someone asked a question in English and got a reply in German? Or are you saying there was an office with 20 German-speaking employees and one English speaking one and then much of the informal talk was in German? It‘s true, it‘s like that. And that‘s not xenophobic. It may be impolite, depending on the situation. It‘s not specific to Germany as anyone working in…

Simplest example: my first time in Munich I was struggling with the subway instructions, they were all in German and this was before Internet on smartphones and Google translate, so at the entrance of the station I asked several people in English if they speak English and can tell me what ticket to purchase (the different ticket by area concept was completely foreign to me). A couple said yes, I asked the question "what ticket I need from here to X station" and the 2 answers were in the tone of : - Read the instructions // - But they are in German // - Learn German.

If you go to Albania, where no foreigners speak the language, they will be happy to try to communicate in Italian (some people know it). Go in Romania, they will use whatever language they know (mostly English or German, but Italian, Spanish or French are not rare at all).

Everywhere in the Balkans people will try to communicate, same in Italy, France or Spain, not a problem at all in the Netherlands, Hungary, Czechia or Slovakia, no matter how bad they speak the language they will communicate with you. At the opposite side of the spectrum is Germany.

I travelled for work or vacations in all the countries in Europe except the Scandinavian Peninsula and Russia/Belarus/Ukraine, I never had a communication problem outside Germany. It almost makes me able to draw some conclusions from my personal experiences and the ones of many people that I know, including family and friends working in Germany for the past 30 years and for the 20 years of having work colleagues and one direct manager in Germany.

I am not saying Germans are bad, my best manager ever was a German moved to US, my current manager is a German in Frankfurt and he is a great guy, but the experience with the people on the street is that they don't want to speak English in many cases.

Re: An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

#33

I order food just about every second day, with a lot of it being delivered by 'lieferando' people. This used to be mostly young people: think students and high schoolers. But lately I've been greeting mostly people looking to be 40-50 at the door. I've been getting used to it but the first few times I was surprised. I think this is the motivation behind the article: People aren't expecting anyone older than say 25 to…

> Let's hope this equates to better pay. High schoolers who get rotated out every six month won't exactly be the best at negotiating or even think of unionization efforts.

I am not optimistic. Will the older immigrants (from many different countries) who don't speak German well, don't have connections, don't really know their rights, and don't have any other options be better at negotiating and unionizing?

Re: An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

#34
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also fail to mention that not everybody is driven by money. Russian engineer and scientist knew pretty well that they could get better life conditions in the US for example, yet they decided to live their life in Russia. These are personal choice beyond what me or you think about, need to be respected. So said, many researcher today are paid very little and they could get a better pay in private sector yet they d…

>> yet they decided to live their life in Russia. These are personal choice Really? Anyone who thinks that America, or anyone else, has any sort of open-door policy towards immigration is kidding themselves. Setting aside whether a Russian engineer would be allowed to leave Russia, the process of immigrating to another country is never easy. It costs money. Lots of it.

It's quite easy when you're an engineer with experience in a field in demand. Comparatively speaking. Leaving Russia was not so hard as long as you did the required amount of years and didn't work on anything sensitive, which if you wanted to leave you wouldn't go into anyways.

Re: An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

#35
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please describe the situation? Are you saying someone asked a question in English and got a reply in German? Or are you saying there was an office with 20 German-speaking employees and one English speaking one and then much of the informal talk was in German? It‘s true, it‘s like that. And that‘s not xenophobic. It may be impolite, depending on the situation. It‘s not specific to Germany as anyone working in…

Simplest example: my first time in Munich I was struggling with the subway instructions, they were all in German and this was before Internet on smartphones and Google translate, so at the entrance of the station I asked several people in English if they speak English and can tell me what ticket to purchase (the different ticket by area concept was completely foreign to me). A couple said yes, I asked the question "w…

Just keep practicing German, in time you'll be AdrianB2 or even AdrianC1! ;)

Re: An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

#36
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please describe the situation? Are you saying someone asked a question in English and got a reply in German? Or are you saying there was an office with 20 German-speaking employees and one English speaking one and then much of the informal talk was in German? It‘s true, it‘s like that. And that‘s not xenophobic. It may be impolite, depending on the situation. It‘s not specific to Germany as anyone working in…

Simplest example: my first time in Munich I was struggling with the subway instructions, they were all in German and this was before Internet on smartphones and Google translate, so at the entrance of the station I asked several people in English if they speak English and can tell me what ticket to purchase (the different ticket by area concept was completely foreign to me). A couple said yes, I asked the question "w…

I have lived in Munich for about 15 years. It is has 28.5% foreigners, making it one of the most diverse cities there.

It‘s possible that you asked someone who chose to be a ****. But most people there are helpful.

Here is the communal election 2020: https://www.wahlen-muenchen.de/ergebnisse/20200315stadtratsw...

AFD got 3.4%. The conservative party got 25%. 28% combined and lumping them together is already too much.

> I travelled for work or vacations in all the countries in Europe […] I never had a communication problem outside Germany

Have you been in Spain outside of the touristic centers? How about France? Not everyone there speaks English and if I go there I try to adapt! I have struggled, I sometimes had to resort to another language, I sometimes couldn‘t communicate at all. But I make the effort because I‘m coming to their country whether on a vacation or for work. I don‘t go around complaining.

Re: An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

#37
post #11

Remember that this guy already has had British citizenship, but he decided to immigrate to Germany despite the language barrier and not being a citizen.

Language is probably the biggest roadblock in getting a job in Germany and most people ignore it. German is not easy (my grandmother was a German teacher, some of my family members are of German descent and none of us is speaking any decent German) and Germans are more xenophobic than they will ever admit. Even in my American company meetings with German people sometimes we have very awkward moments when the Germans…

I would separate the topic of language and xenophobia. The language is hard and acceptance to speak English - while generally there - is not universal. However, the bubble of non English speakers, the bubble of xenophobic people and bubble of racists in Germany have not the biggest overlaps.

Native languages in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Japanese or China have a very long history and the countries are very confident of themselves. A German thinks: you are here so you should speak German. Maybe I am nice and talk English to you, but I expect you to learn German if you are here. The French are even stricter on that.

Re: An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

#38

I order food just about every second day, with a lot of it being delivered by 'lieferando' people. This used to be mostly young people: think students and high schoolers. But lately I've been greeting mostly people looking to be 40-50 at the door. I've been getting used to it but the first few times I was surprised. I think this is the motivation behind the article: People aren't expecting anyone older than say 25 to…

>>High schoolers who get rotated out every six month won't exactly be the best at negotiating or even think of unionization efforts.

Artificially raising pay above market rates leads to higher consumer prices, and massive deadweight loss from greater unrealized production/earnings.

Between 1870 and 1900, when there was no minimum wage, or labor regulations to empower unions, US wages doubled in inflation-adjusted terms, while US industry expanded and became financially healthier.

This was very much unlike the post-war period, where US industry was running on borrowed time, making increasingly burdensome concessions to unions that led to huge bankruptcies and retrenchment in the 1970s in many industries.

Re: An Afghan minister who became a bicycle courier in Germany

#40
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is probably the biggest roadblock in getting a job in Germany and most people ignore it. German is not easy (my grandmother was a German teacher, some of my family members are of German descent and none of us is speaking any decent German) and Germans are more xenophobic than they will ever admit. Even in my American company meetings with German people sometimes we have very awkward moments when the Germans…

So Germans speaking their own language in their own country is now xenophobic? (referring to your first paragraph) It‘s true that with the exception of big companies or certain industries much German is spoken at work. Exactly like Spanish in Spain, French in France, Italian in Italy or Portuguese in Portugal. I‘m German myself, mostly living outside Germany. I try to fit in as good as possible, including making an e…

@AdrianB1 (a reference to the CEFR score?) said “and” not “therefore”, so you shouldn’t be presuming there is intended to be a causal connection between those two things.

My general assumption when I looked for places to move to in response to Brexit was that people in one country are much the same as people in any other; as almost every nation is “more xenophobic than they will ever admit”[1]. I happen go think that Germany is far less xenophobic than most countries[2], while still being more xenophobic than it wants to admit.

Assuming the same distribution of personalities is also one reason why I picked Berlin over any tiny village somewhere, as my experience in the UK says London is more welcoming of outsiders than are random quiet British villages, and I applied this pattern everywhere. Former coworker from Pakistan confirmed this hypothesis with stories from his experiences in other parts of Germany.

I’m looking forward to this pandemic being over so I can do meatspace language lessons instead of relying on apps and websites.

[1] for example, the UK has many loud people who refuse to accept they’re xenophobic while saying the country has too many Muslims (and then the Mosque they’re complaining about turns out to be a Catholic cathedral or a former Royal palace). Likewise apologists for the British empire. I even knew someone whose response to asylum seekers causing the Eurostar being delayed one time was to suggest the government would make the next train drive through anyone on the line, as if late trains were not a standard part of modern Britain (I no longer talk to this person).

I would be surprised if this was uniquely a British delusion, or if any other nation managed to avoid it, and the nature of the graffiti I saw outside the Bad Kissingen train station, and on political posters in Nürnberg (a city, but I’m not saying all racists live in the countryside), certainly indicate that it is similar.

[2] e.g. opinion polls showing high level of public support for more asylum seekers.

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