Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 99 posts

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#31

Post by transitory_pce »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #25
transitory_pce wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are a few genuinely 'bad people' out there Do you want to count the number of violent rapes by year? Violent premeditated murders? Lets add violent robbery and assault by people have food and a place to stay, but are looking to level up and buy shiny things? This is not a circumstance, and there are many 'bad people' out there.

>Do you want to count the number of violent rapes by year? Violent premeditated murders? People do keep count of this, and the (per-capita) rate of violent crime has been falling fairly monotonically since at least the end of WW2. Our genetics haven't changed in that time, but circumstances have.

So what do you do with the violently inclined people? Put them in therapy and hope they get better?

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#32

Post by Sporktacular »

rainworld wrote: post #26
guerrilla wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She maintained her innocence and was eventually found not guilty on all counts. > A defense motion for a change of venue was granted, and the trial was moved to Santa Clara County. On June 4, 1972, after 13 hours of deliberations, the all-white jury returned a verdict of not guilty. The fact that she owned the guns used in the crime was judged insufficient to establish her role in the plot. John Lennon and Yoko Ono i…

To everybody interested in all this I will strongly recommend Bryan Burrough’s Days of Rage. Too few know just how much left-wing terrorism there was during that time, how much they got away with, and just how much support they got from mainstream society.[0] Lennon came to regret much of his left-wing activism later in life. [0] Cf. Tom Wolfe’s Radical Chic: https://nymag.com/news/features/46170/

So you knew knowing she bought the shotgun but you didn't know she was acquitted? Or were you just hoping no one else did?

You seem to have an agenda here, trying to find any way to undermine the left.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#33

Post by zozbot234 »

guerrilla wrote: post #13
choeger wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple answer, no they are not. There are people that need to be locked up to protect society. Think Breivik, or the psychopaths that eradicate whole families for their perverted pleasure. That being said, prisons as a punishment seem to scale very badly. I think that a prison sentence up to maybe a year or so is a very effective deterrent against crimes like tax evasion, theft, fraud, or domestic violence (if it is…

> So the question is: Do we want to give up on the punishment part? Do we want to introduce even more draconian measures? If you read the book then you'd know that's what it's about. The title is written under the premise that prisons without punishment (and all their other negative qualities) are not prisons. It's a critique of prisons in the real world, not some abstract idea of prisons. The book's actually online…

Prisons actually bundle punishment (which seems especially effective and worthwhile for shorter sentences) and isolation/protection (keeping criminals locked up even for longer timespans and thus literally preventing them from reoffending, which actually seems to be the key factor wrt. such longer sentences). So "prisons without punishment" could still be worthwhile and protect us from the most serious crimes. In many ways, being a prison inmate is punishment enough and the focus beyond that should very much be on rehabilitation that can benefit both the inmate and society as a whole.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#34

Post by kwhitefoot »

bitwize wrote: post #8
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #3

I urge anyone touched by this to learn about the prison abolition movement. My favorite thinker on the matter is Angela Davis. She was wrongly imprisoned for over a year in the 1971-1972 which called attention to political prisoners the world over. After a global call for her release she was acquitted of the charges and released. She became a college professor and a prolific author, and is still today a highly respec…

"They deserve what they get. Let them remain in prison." --Angela Davis on Czech opponents to the communist regime Seems her opposition to prisons was a bit... selective.

> her opposition to prisons was a bit... selective.

So we can be selective in picking from her writings and opinions the things that work. One doesn't have to reject all of a person's work once one discovers that they are flawed human beings.

For instance, Francis Galton was in favour of some rather unpleasant social ideas (eugenics) but we would be the poorer if we rejected his contributions to statistical methods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton#Innovations_in_...

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#35

Post by kwhitefoot »

grecy wrote: post #7

I recently had to spend 14 days locked in a hotel room alone as mandatory quarantine to enter Australia. Shockingly (for me), after just 14 days I already felt more comfortable inside the room than out, and I got a real glimpse into what being "institutionalized" means. Life was so simple and not scary, it was enjoyable, in a sick kind of way. I couldn't imagine what coming out after an entire year would be like, let…

I'm beginning to really dislike the downvote button. This seems like a perfectly reasonable comment so what purpose is served by fading it out?

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#36

Post by everyone »

jimnotgym wrote: post #28
throwawaygimp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI no one knows. Being sold or otherwise doesn't matter. Small trials here and there aren't much use. We need a country with balls to try it like Portugal did with drug policy. So yea, I'm not sold either. No one really is until we get the hard truth. Nothing more complex (and chaotic) than society and it's economy. Good luck modelling and predicting that reliably ha!

Whilst the detractors of UBI like to paint it as automatically impossible, like breaking some fundamental law of nature, I bet the same people would have said the same things about the Covid benefit schemes. In my country people could be furloughed by their employer on 80% of their salary... and somehow we paid for it ok.

Most people's jobs are utterly pointless. Yet still, by doing these jobs the workers get money with which they can buy their portion of resources. Let's just do the same thing without the pointless and wasteful busy work.

Maybe the only thing stopping us is our cultural values dating back to the industrial revolution when workers were indoctrinated with the idea of work as virtuous.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#37

Post by rainworld »

Sporktacular wrote: post #32
rainworld wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To everybody interested in all this I will strongly recommend Bryan Burrough’s Days of Rage. Too few know just how much left-wing terrorism there was during that time, how much they got away with, and just how much support they got from mainstream society.[0] Lennon came to regret much of his left-wing activism later in life. [0] Cf. Tom Wolfe’s Radical Chic: https://nymag.com/news/features/46170/

So you knew knowing she bought the shotgun but you didn't know she was acquitted? Or were you just hoping no one else did? You seem to have an agenda here, trying to find any way to undermine the left.

I’m familiar with the details of the case, tyvm. Wrongful verdicts happen all the time. Especially when there’s enormous social pressure and polarization, then and now.

The left (or progressivism, really) does not need my help undermining itself—it’s just that it’s a painfully slow slide down and I’d rather see something else during my lifetime and for my descendants.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#38

Post by certeoun »

jimnotgym wrote: post #28
throwawaygimp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI no one knows. Being sold or otherwise doesn't matter. Small trials here and there aren't much use. We need a country with balls to try it like Portugal did with drug policy. So yea, I'm not sold either. No one really is until we get the hard truth. Nothing more complex (and chaotic) than society and it's economy. Good luck modelling and predicting that reliably ha!

Whilst the detractors of UBI like to paint it as automatically impossible, like breaking some fundamental law of nature, I bet the same people would have said the same things about the Covid benefit schemes. In my country people could be furloughed by their employer on 80% of their salary... and somehow we paid for it ok.

The government needs to pay for this. The taxes collected come from people. So a fraction of the people have to pay for UBI.

If we assume full automation and no private property, then the machines work for us now. They don't complain like Ben Shapiro that paying for the poor with your wealth/income is "stealing". Communism is a good idea on paper, but humans in general are greedy and envious. If we had unlimited resources, the machines in such a scenario could produce everything for each greedy individual. However, our resources are limited, and one greedy person wants more than the other. That's actually the main issue here. People don't want to put up with getting the same thing as everyone else. (I would put up with it, though, but I am the minority here.)

Then there is Europe or social democracies. There is actually a limited form of UBI called "public assistance". You don't have to pay anything back and it is only for those who can't support themselves.

I hope there is a flaw in my thinking here. It would make my day if you would enlighten me with your wisdom. :)

PS: I couldn't resist sharing a good parody on Ben Shapiro's character: https://youtu.be/wPgwwZ8ih3k Sorry HN, I know this is somewhat silly from me, but it is too funny. :D

Edit: For the person who downvoted my comment here. Care to share on why you did this? Please enlighten me. I don't care about karma points. I care about why you think that I am wrong. Was my first sentence the offender? I meant it in this way: For UBI, the government needs to ...

Anyhow, tell me why I am wrong and not just downvote it and leave. Explain, please! Thank you!

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#39

Post by kilroy123 »

throwawaygimp wrote: post #9

UBI + health (and other calamity) insurance for all. A strong public mental health system. Prescription drugs of every kind, heroin, meth, whatever. With the right counselling and support attached. I might be an idiot but pretty sure most crime will just go away, then we can spend proper resources to help and support (and punish when needed) the few offenders who really struggle to stay within the rules of society. T…

It's been my experience around the world that about 99% of people are honest for the most part and won't rob or harm you. But... that means there's that 1% who _will_. I think no matter what, that 1% will exist (this is just a gut feeling).

That means in the US alone, there are ~3.3 million people roaming around that will rob, steal, murder, rape, and do other horrible things. At a peak, 2.3 million were in prison so I don't think that number is too far off.

Yes, I understand the complexities of this. Yes, I know many of those people are in prison for drug related offenses. I'm not here to debate any of that, it's a complex issue and I'm generalizing big time.

It's just to point out that, the 1% thing probably has some truth to it based on real data.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#40

Post by AussieWog93 »

transitory_pce wrote: post #31
AussieWog93 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you want to count the number of violent rapes by year? Violent premeditated murders? People do keep count of this, and the (per-capita) rate of violent crime has been falling fairly monotonically since at least the end of WW2. Our genetics haven't changed in that time, but circumstances have.

So what do you do with the violently inclined people? Put them in therapy and hope they get better?

I mean, it depends on what you mean by "violently inclined".

I'm not a sociologist, so I don't know specifically what works and what doesn't, but clearly whatever we've been doing for the last 50 years has led to a smaller percentage of children born with inherently aggressive/antisocial personalities going on to commit violent crimes as an adult.

If you're talking about adults with violent inclinations that have acted on them and committed horrific crimes, then the obvious answer is to segregate them from the rest of society as they're clearly dangerous.

It looks like we're speaking across purposes. I'm not trying to absolve rapists and murderers of blame, nor am I trying to downplay the danger they pose to the rest of us. At the same time, though we should acknowledge that violent crime seems to be a mostly-solvable problem on a population level and simply throwing up your arms and saying "bad people are bad" isn't going to push the stats down.

Post reply on HN