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U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

decrypt.co

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Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#31
I've been following this discussion in Washington and on Hacker News. I'm moderately anti-crypto--I don't buy the pitch but am open to being wrong and believe folks should be free to do what they want with it.

I've also been struck by the proliferation of bank-like services without bank-like obligations. This stretches from fractional-reserve and maturity-transforming services like Tether to exchanges/dealers like Binance and ersatz money transmitters like BitPay.

We need AML (edit: anti-money laundering) and tax reporting at those nexuses. If the answer is there should be no AML, KYC (edit: know-your-customer rules) and/or reporting by cryptocurrency companies, we have no common ground on this argument. To date, this is what I have most-commonly heard. If that's what the Senate is hearing, it's unsurprising they consider the debate closed. If the argument is a reasonable tweak to who has to report, or what or the form in which it must be reported, policy makers are listening. (Wyden's amendment is a result of reasonable concerns expressed by miners.)

Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#32

If you think all cryptocurrencies are scams or think blockchains do nothing useful, please skip this comment. If you think things like decentralized finance, storage and identity have the potential to improve our lives and offer some of the only genuine alternatives to an increasingly privacy-hostile status quo, please look into the shambolic legislative process that threatens the entire blockchain industry in the Un…

How does being required to track data about taxation challenge the existence of the builders you mention?

I can see how it might for the companies - people who use crypto for tax and authority avoidance seem likely to stop using any service that complies with this law.

I don't see how this bill threatens any human's existence.

Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it does. Because as written it includes miners in that group. Miners have no possible way of having the full identity of the parties involved in every transaction they verify and it would be impossible to comply with this reporting. That effectively outlaws it.

Did you read the amendment? It explicitly exempts miners, the devs, and pure wallets

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Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it does. Because as written it includes miners in that group. Miners have no possible way of having the full identity of the parties involved in every transaction they verify and it would be impossible to comply with this reporting. That effectively outlaws it.

Did you read the amendment? It explicitly exempts miners, the devs, and pure wallets

The United States Senate has voted in favor of the Warner-Sinema-Portman amendment to President Biden’s infrastructure bill in a landslide of 68-29 late on Sunday evening.

"The Warner-Sinema-Portman amendment has been widely criticized by the crypto community for imposing tax reporting requirements on non-custodial actors like miners and software developers who don’t record customer information."

The one that exempts miners has not been adopted (the rival Wyden-Toomey-Luumis amendment).

Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#35
post #24

WINNERS: Large corporations and financial institutions. They can afford the now-required overhead for all kinds of services, including transaction processing with fees and rewards, i.e., mining, and make a nice profit at high volumes. LOSERS: Smaller service providers. They cannot afford the now-required overhead because they don't have sufficient economies of scale.

What? You expected the U.S. Government to not go after maintaining the levers it needs to project power through economic control of who is allowed to transact what?

Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it does. Because as written it includes miners in that group. Miners have no possible way of having the full identity of the parties involved in every transaction they verify and it would be impossible to comply with this reporting. That effectively outlaws it.

Did you read the amendment? It explicitly exempts miners, the devs, and pure wallets

The reporting on this topic is inconsistent, but there's two amendments in play here.

AIUI, this is saying that the first amendment (which enacts the reporting requirement in the first place) has been accepted. The second amendment (which adds the explicit exemptions you mentioned) hasn't been decided on yet as far as I can tell.

Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#37
post #3

Everything in the article leads me to believe this only threatens the “cryptocurrency” industry, but I don’t have the actual text to the amendment. Is anything threatening “crypto” itself?

No, and I hate that people shorten cryptocurrency to crypto.

Do you also hate that cryptography is shortened to crypto?

Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#38
post #3

Everything in the article leads me to believe this only threatens the “cryptocurrency” industry, but I don’t have the actual text to the amendment. Is anything threatening “crypto” itself?

No, and I hate that people shorten cryptocurrency to crypto.

The prefix "crypto" means hidden or disguised in English. Neither cryptocurrency nor cryptography have a monopoly on it. The way people get exercised about this issue you'd think that "cryptography" is the only word in the English language to use the prefix "crypto-".

Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#39
Blegh. I think that cryptocurrency was a well-intentioned experiment trying to solve real problems, but that it has broadly failed, and that some of the knock-on effects of speculation on top of the cryptocurrency ecosystem are just unambiguously harmful at this point.

It's not just the environmental concerns from PoW; I have concerns about privacy, about how coins have derailed (in my mind) more legitimate efforts to improve modern financial systems. And I have cultural concerns about how this plays into some of the worst instincts of modern society towards speculation and artificial scarcity purely for their own sake, disconnected from any problems or utility. NFTs are the type of technology that honestly shouldn't have been developed, they're pointless and exploitative.

But as much as I do kind of want cryptocurrency to crash and die, I really don't want to do it this way. I've seen some people argue that this wouldn't apply to software developers, but I don't like that the question is under debate at all. The idea that it theoretically might is terrifying, if it's not intended to apply to developers why wouldn't we clarify that in the bill to assuage those fears? And even where miners are concerned: I would like to see mining (particularly PoW mining) eventually become unprofitable, but pushing those people into the category of brokers seems really problematic and short-sighted.

My worry is both that this will open the door to a lot more unnecessary data collection, and that further down the road it might hinder efforts to make better alternatives to the current cryptocurrency industry. The financial concerns are real, but the really troubling part to me is the reporting requirement. Software developers shouldn't be collecting this kind of information, neither should miners.

I also haven't seen a lot of consensus about what technologies the label "digital asset" could apply to in the future, and that worries me a lot as well. I am not a legal expert, I don't feel qualified at all to speculate on how this stuff is determined. A smaller group of people saying that "obviously X made-up digital token or point system or game item wouldn't count" -- that's not super-reassuring to me because I'm not smart enough to evaluate the accuracy of their claims. I want to see more qualified legal experts weigh in. I don't want to see games suddenly collecting a lot of personal information just because technically someone could sell a digital item to another player for money.

I like Wyden's amendment: it still goes after brokers, but it makes it clear who a broker is (and importantly, isn't). And I thought that there was pretty decent bipartisan support for Wyden's amendment. It's really frustrating that support seemed to only be good enough to get 29 votes.

Re: U.S. Senate Vote in Favor of Amendment That Threatens Crypto Industry

#40
Oh my goodness. Here is Portman himself in his own words:

“The Treasury Department, the nonpartisan Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation and others believe that the current language is clear and that the reporting requirements only covers brokers, but my view is that we should work to clarify this given the potential for confusion on an extremely important issue. In particular, we want to be sure miners and stakers and others now or in the future who play a key role by validating transactions, or sellers of hardware or software for digital wallets, or node operators, or others who are not brokers are clearly exempted.”

Video: https://youtu.be/p0auPbbDQnY

AND YET the Warner-Portman-Sinema (note the Portman in there!) amendment doesn’t specifically exclude stakers or validators who may now or in the future secure the networks, and certainly not the catch-all “others who are not brokers”? Only exempts proof-of-work miners? Yet he claims it was already “clearly exempted” in the proposed bill at the time of his speech and the amendment was supposed to clarify that??

I wonder if the Senator’s own words on the floor, and assurances that the Treasury and others hold the same view, could be used in court cases to clarify the meaning of “broker” later on, in favor of the defendants (Ethereum proof of stake miners, say) when they will invariably be served papers and prosecuted for not reporting.

Seriously, how can you say one thing and do another so blatantly? This is worse than “if you like your plan you can keep it”.

Will the Treasury and others likewise say one thing in private (as he reports) and quickly flip when it comes to making examples out of non-reporting POS miners?

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