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The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

leidenmedievalistsblog.nl

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Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#31

Post by larsiusprime »

> And finally, something that would, in my opinion, really add to the realism and historical flavor of a medieval-themed city builder would be the introduction of mechanisms in which agricultural surpluses are skimmed by the church and the feudal lord. Tithes, taxes and rents! Instead of merely abstracting the taxes into an income modifier or letting the player be the extractor himself, we could be shown the tax collector visiting the village, counting the sheaves by the side of the road, selecting the calves and chickens. This way, the experiences of our medieval forebears are visualized and may help to educate the public about medieval village life.

This is the part that's most interesting to me. I always feel tax policy & land use is very rarely explored in games; in most of these games if you can set tax rates at all it always seems to be a straight tax on productivity so you just have to pick the amount of deadweight loss you're willing to accept to generate the revenue you need to run your government. There's also very rarely any distinction between government spending and private spending, and how government spending on public goods influences the asset values of private interests. You could make an entire game about just that subject.

EDIT: As a follow-up, I found this history of land & tax policy in Denmark going back to the middle ages to be quite fascinating and might be a useful point of contact for this sort of thing: https://bibliotek1.dk/english/history/centuries-of-experienc...

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#32

Post by a4isms »

sprafa wrote: post #3

It’s interesting and most likely not applicable - for the very same reasons you cant get realistic sword fighting (or even street fighting) in most Hollywood movies: realistic fighting doesn’t look as exciting as the fake thing. Glad the author sees into that very clearly. * Could be an interesting art game tho as someone pointed out below

When creating an entertainment product, be it a movie or game, your user’s expectations are the canvas you paint on. In some places you deliberately violate them, in others you accommodate them at the expense of “realism.”

An amusing example: In the Sly Stallone rock climbing action movie “Cliffhanger,” they shot a scene where he ice climbs without an axe. To get past a certain section, he dips his gloved hand in cold water and freezes it to the ice, using that for traction.

This is an actual technique alpinists have used. But test audiences (who are not alpine climbers) rejected it as preposterous. So it’s on the DVD as a “deleted scene,” but wasn’t in the cut they released to theatres.

The movie also features a “bolt gun” he carries that can sink a bolt into rock, which can then be used as a hold or to attach a carabiner. No such thing is possible with current technology, but audiences accepted it as possible, so it plays a prominent role in the plot.

The movie’s producers were catering to their audience’s expectation as they actually were, not as we may wish they were.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#33

Post by Macha »

larsiusprime wrote: post #31

> And finally, something that would, in my opinion, really add to the realism and historical flavor of a medieval-themed city builder would be the introduction of mechanisms in which agricultural surpluses are skimmed by the church and the feudal lord. Tithes, taxes and rents! Instead of merely abstracting the taxes into an income modifier or letting the player be the extractor himself, we could be shown the tax coll…

The closest to modelling this skimming comes from Tropico, where the player's offshore bank account is effectively the player's "score", but the process of skimming off money to the bank account causes problems for your settlement.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#34

Post by philwelch »

cryptoz wrote: post #5
sprafa wrote: post #3

It’s interesting and most likely not applicable - for the very same reasons you cant get realistic sword fighting (or even street fighting) in most Hollywood movies: realistic fighting doesn’t look as exciting as the fake thing. Glad the author sees into that very clearly. * Could be an interesting art game tho as someone pointed out below

There's a really great scene in HBO's Barry (Bill Hader) with an attempt at a more realistic fight scene. It's quite interesting actually! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_MjQRqEk5M Spoilers possible if you haven't seen the show. Definitely recommend it btw.

Wow, that was very entertaining though obviously a bit comedic. Both characters also seem to have much better technique than conditioning.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#35

Post by drewzero1 »

duxup wrote: post #13

I always thought city builders are a weird mix of sort of free market / authoritarian beliefs: In most city builder games involve some planning, incentives provided, and people just show up, do their thing, growth is endless, build a business, and there you go. On the other hand in most city builders the player makes all the decisions and can act at will with no regard to his local citizens ;)

Can you imagine a real mayor simulator, where you'd have to get elected and answer to the city council and constituents? I expect most would find that boring, but it might be a fun (or at least educational) experience for some.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#36

Post by Robotbeat »

svachalek wrote: post #17
pphysch wrote: post #8

The basic problem is the disparity in control mechanisms. As a city-builder player, you have central planning capabilities that would make Stalin jealous--and were completely unattainable in the relevant time period due to poor communications technology. One solution is to make "social power"/"control"/"influence" an actual gameplay mechanic, rather than leaving it entirely to the players cognition/dexterity. Lack of…

According to TFA however, one flaw in medieval city builders is that they are too organic, when actual villages were centrally planned. The more major one however is that growth was apparently near hopeless, which would really make them play like a different genre entirely.

I think with modern hindsight, growth would be fairly straightforward, but it’s anachronistic to bring 21st century intellectual tools to bear in a 10th Century context, like bringing a machine gun (and plenty of ammo) to a medieval battlefield. Even things like knowing about sanitation (so don’t put wells where you dump your sewer) would help massively.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#37

Post by pphysch »

svachalek wrote: post #17
pphysch wrote: post #8

The basic problem is the disparity in control mechanisms. As a city-builder player, you have central planning capabilities that would make Stalin jealous--and were completely unattainable in the relevant time period due to poor communications technology. One solution is to make "social power"/"control"/"influence" an actual gameplay mechanic, rather than leaving it entirely to the players cognition/dexterity. Lack of…

According to TFA however, one flaw in medieval city builders is that they are too organic, when actual villages were centrally planned. The more major one however is that growth was apparently near hopeless, which would really make them play like a different genre entirely.

Villages are planned to some extent, but they almost certainly are placed in areas with existing settlers i.e. productive capacity. The farms (settlers) come first, then the village follows.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#38

Post by Derek_Mudaxe »

ThePadawan wrote: post #11
publicola1990 wrote: post #4

Even modern city builders are inaccurate in the sense that timelines of how long it takes to build things aren't Modelled correct. Plus organic city growth is rarely simulated. Cities skylines for example has no concept of slums. Also the annoying Western/Eurocentrism. Eg: See the recent game Dorfromantik, its aesthetically pleasing, it is rustic european scenery, but why isn't it not set in Indonesia or Ecuador or U…

> Eg: See the recent game Dorfromantik, its aesthetically pleasing, its rustic european scene, but why isn't it not set in Indonesia or Ecuador or Uzbekistan? That seems a bit harsh judgement for a game with a German name, made by 4 German game design students living in Berlin, with funds from the German state [0]. [0] https://toukana.itch.io/

Yeah, if a European developer attempted to make a non-European city builder then they'd probably get accused of appropriation, and in addition would also get slammed for the inaccuracies and socio-cultural misunderstandings that would inevitably manifest. Also, what stops developers in those aforementioned regions making their own games, there are plenty of relatively cheap and reasonable options in terms of game engines.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#39

Post by paavohtl »

Aperocky wrote: post #19
paavohtl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what Foundation [1] (which was also shown in a screenshot in the article) does. [1] https://store.steampowered.com/app/690830/Foundation/

Looks like it's windows only..

As are most games. According to ProtonDB [1] it should run more or less perfectly on Linux with Proton.

[1] https://www.protondb.com/app/690830

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#40

Post by mrVentures2 »

larsiusprime wrote: post #31

> And finally, something that would, in my opinion, really add to the realism and historical flavor of a medieval-themed city builder would be the introduction of mechanisms in which agricultural surpluses are skimmed by the church and the feudal lord. Tithes, taxes and rents! Instead of merely abstracting the taxes into an income modifier or letting the player be the extractor himself, we could be shown the tax coll…

See the the Caesar franchise (Caesar IV, 2006). You have to hire tax collectors, set taxes, and yes you also have a separate income as a governor. It does all of this.
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