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TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#31

Post by turbinerneiter »

driton wrote: post #18
martin_a wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German myself: Why would you not invest? Infrastructure, state of mind? I'd really love to see more high-tech companies invest here, after we've managed to kill the solar companies... :-/

What happened to the solar companies in Germany?

We spent a lot of money on solar, lots of German companies started to fill the demand, the Chinese came in and dumped prices, Germany decided not to import-tax -> lots of German tax payer money spent on installing solar power, but all the German solar companies were priced out of the market by Chinese companies.

Basically, Germany built Chinas solar industry, let our own die.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#33

Post by est31 »

driton wrote: post #18
martin_a wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German myself: Why would you not invest? Infrastructure, state of mind? I'd really love to see more high-tech companies invest here, after we've managed to kill the solar companies... :-/

What happened to the solar companies in Germany?

Germany entered a subsidy bidding war with China and eventually decided it's not worth the extreme skewing of the market and pulled out. This had the consequences that solar panels are now manufactured in China. IDK but from my point of view, solar panels are more dependent on salaries than chip manufacturing is.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#34

Post by thrwyoilarticle »

DangerousPie wrote: post #25
thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German engineering gave us BER

What does the (mis)management of a public infrastructure project have to do with Germany's attractiveness as a base for manufacturing?

Plants don't pop up overnight to the obliviousness of the state. This proposal brings into consideration vast amounts of money, tax revenue, and employment opportunities that the government will care about. All with unique infrastructure requirements and long roadplans.

To flip the question around: what does the ability to produce executive cars have to do with Germany's ability to fix the problem Intel have been stuck on for the better part of a decade?

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#35

Post by Bigpet »

cpach wrote: post #3
alexanderklein wrote: post #2

If i were TCMS, i would not invest in Germany. But as a german, living in Germany, i am happy that they consider an investment in Germany.

Why not? From my POV Germany seems good at manufacturing. E.g. Siemens. And cars.

Labor laws would still be sort of OK for a high-tech factory like TSMC.

But I think environmental policy would be really hostile to a large fab. Politics seems really fickle about it too. For "old school" industries like coal they try to bend over backwards to make exceptions, but when it comes to new players especially local politics will have little reservations to tanking your multi million dollar projects.

This can obviously be a huge benefit to the population, but if I were in the position to choose a location I'd factor that in heavily.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#36

Post by ChemSpider »

alexanderklein wrote: post #2

If i were TCMS, i would not invest in Germany. But as a german, living in Germany, i am happy that they consider an investment in Germany.

Germany is a great place to invest. So is most of Western Europe. The #1 thing you are looking for is _stability_ and a good engineering job market. Both is available.

For this kind of automated high-tech manufacturing, nobody cares about salaries. They are <<1% of the cost.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#37

Post by corty »

driton wrote: post #18
martin_a wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German myself: Why would you not invest? Infrastructure, state of mind? I'd really love to see more high-tech companies invest here, after we've managed to kill the solar companies... :-/

What happened to the solar companies in Germany?

Practically all went bancrupt between 10 and 12 years ago. Starting around 2000, Germany began to heavily subsidize private solar panel installations with guaranteed prices around 1Eur/kWh (later falling to 0.5Eur/kWh, now around 0.1Eur/kWh). With subsidies falling, demand dropped. And initial high subsidies (some claim, see [0]) made the industry too lazy to get competitive abroad, so around 2008 China began to ramp up production for cheaper panels at dumping prices. Politicians failed to react with import duties until it was too late (around 2013). Falling domestic demand, lower prices and higher production in China and political failure to protect domestic production all lead to the death of Germany's solar industry. Even big names such as Siemens solar branch, who could have easily weathered the storm and buy up their competition on the cheap, got out as fast as they could. Because political flailing signaled imminent doom and no betterment in the long term.

Of course nowadays there is again political hypocrisy mounting around the need for shorter transport routes, domestic independence, more capacity, etc. But even so, measures to prop up European solar manufacturers are very weak, import duties have been lifted and China's production has now become too strong to oppose. So there is a little useless promising before an election, then silence.

[0] https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/studie-zu...

see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27942010#27943382

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#38

Post by orbifold »

nixass wrote: post #4

Make it Munich, make it Munich, make it Munich

It probably will be Bavaria with subsidies from the COVID relief fund. Intel has plans to that effect, as well: https://www.eenewseurope.com/news/intel-eyes-bavaria-wafer-f....

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#39

Post by baybal2 »

tester34 wrote: post #11
ipnon wrote: post #5

TSMC is really the keystone for everything else done that ends up getting talked about on this website. They are constantly at the bleeding edge of computer manufacture and pushing it further still. We should feel some sense of amazement to be alive still in the middle of the computer revolution.

Overall semiconducting industry seems to be way more exciting than boring computer industry

Pure sarcasm, but no :)

> Overall semiconducting industry seems to be way more exciting than boring computer industry

The most groundbreaking things all tech must be about are cat video websites, and internet companies :D

People completely forget that were Morris Chang (the previous CEO of TSMC,) not been polite, and ethical to a fault, the industry would've still be dominated by monster big semis, manufacturing every chip around, and who would've milked all big chip users like internet companies to death.

I can't imagine Panasonic, Toshiba, Motorola, or AMD of old not scheming to squeezing their clients to the last cent, and strategizing to prevent clients from gaining negotiating power.

TSMC's benevolent stance in comparison to that would be almost bordering on charity.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#40

Post by ChemSpider »

gallexme wrote: post #17
martin_a wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German myself: Why would you not invest? Infrastructure, state of mind? I'd really love to see more high-tech companies invest here, after we've managed to kill the solar companies... :-/

As a German Permits, the government is V slow. And labor is expensive. Also sounds expensive to use all the water they need, since they would need to clean it up very good and align the temperature with the rest of the attached rivers or what they use. And other climate relevant regulations.

Germany has plenty of water. Certainly more than Taiwan.
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