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Disinformation: It’s History

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Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#31

Post by clarkevans »

The conclusion of this article mentions a book, "Democracy for Realists: Why Elections Do Not Produce Responsive Government" (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691169446/de...) [2016]

> It skewered what Achen and Bartels called the “folk theory of democracy.” By that, they meant the idea that voters support candidates who reflect the overall interests and goals of the citizenry. Instead, Achen and Bartels traced how other factors, such as group identities or national economic performance in the last six months before an election, mattered far more.

Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#32

Post by heymijo »

kian wrote: post #4

And here I thought the author was making a pithy observation about the fact that history is always written by the victors, and therefor almost always a form of disinformation about the losers.

> history is always written by the victors

You know, I always thought this too, but the US Civil War history is a very good counter example.

Southerners had an outsized influence on civil war history in two ways that I know of.

One was the Lost Cause ideology [0].

The second was in writing about the war and its participants. For example, understating the number of troops Robert E. Lee had at decisive battles to make him look better.

The Lost Cause mythology is alive and well. While there’s a good deal of new scholarship looking at the historiography of the civil war.

[0] https://time.com/5013943/john-kelly-civil-war-textbooks/

Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#33

Post by jfengel »

kian wrote: post #4

And here I thought the author was making a pithy observation about the fact that history is always written by the victors, and therefor almost always a form of disinformation about the losers.

History isn't always written by the victors. Often, it's written by the losers, who spend time dwelling on it.

The most prominent example is the American Civil War, where great effort was made to propagandize it as The Lost Cause. But other examples include German histories of World War I and Thucydides history of the Peloponnesian War.

The Onion made a joke out of it, but in a sense it really is an example that the history of rock was written by the losers.

https://www.theonion.com/history-of-rock-written-by-the-lose...

Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#34

Post by jfengel »

tonetheman wrote: post #18
jokoon wrote: post #17

Nihilism makes me believe that Trump was not such abnormal occurrence. Human minds have a innate desire for virtue and truth, and since objectivity doesn't exist, it becomes difficult to admit that voters would end up create an alternative truth, or at least not at this scale. I think it always came from the fact that truth doesn't really exist. Humans can really believe anything. There is no good and no evil. In a w…

This is a great comment. People can believe anything. As a current example, in the United States the Republican party has been against vaccines. And have been telling their base to doubt them or not get them. Fox news has lead the way along with lots of other media channels. But for some reason they changed this week and started claiming everyone needs a vaccine. So the complete opposite story. And no one batted an e…

Eyes have certainly been batted, e.g.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/07/whats-behind-fox-new...

I don't know the reaction among Fox News' viewers. It'll be interesting to see if vaccination rates tick up markedly in red districts.

Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#35

Post by motohagiography »

clarkevans wrote: post #31

The conclusion of this article mentions a book, "Democracy for Realists: Why Elections Do Not Produce Responsive Government" ( https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691169446/de... ) [2016] > It skewered what Achen and Bartels called the “folk theory of democracy.” By that, they meant the idea that voters support candidates who reflect the overall interests and goals of the citizenry. Instead, Achen and Bar…

Came to comment on that. Responsive government presumes it is not merely a necessary evil and a blunt instrument of last resort for which ancients developed democracy to mitigate the effects from more "responsive" governments like tyrannies and monarchies. It's stupid by design, and there is a one-to-one relationship between undemocratic powers and the powers to manage and rule.

There will always be a cadre of technocrats vying for control because they think what it standing in their way is the freedom of others, which is circular reasoning in that the reason they are not in power is because people are not their subjects and slaves, and free people will not choose them or their policies. The only way they succeed is with deception and threats, and history is the story of what we have always had to do to dislodge them after tolerating the games that let the vampires in.

Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#36

Post by hirako2000 »

gordian-mind wrote: post #12
happynacho wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF did I just read.

Someone whose brain exploded five years ago and who still hasn't recovered. There's a mental health crisis among the managerial elite in the U.S., that's obvious to any outside observer.

I'm so glad to read that observation. I have been telling people around me we are going through a mental health crisis among our elites, and it has spread to the general population who blindly see them as models.

Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#37

Post by johnp314 »

tonetheman wrote: post #18
jokoon wrote: post #17

Nihilism makes me believe that Trump was not such abnormal occurrence. Human minds have a innate desire for virtue and truth, and since objectivity doesn't exist, it becomes difficult to admit that voters would end up create an alternative truth, or at least not at this scale. I think it always came from the fact that truth doesn't really exist. Humans can really believe anything. There is no good and no evil. In a w…

This is a great comment. People can believe anything. As a current example, in the United States the Republican party has been against vaccines. And have been telling their base to doubt them or not get them. Fox news has lead the way along with lots of other media channels. But for some reason they changed this week and started claiming everyone needs a vaccine. So the complete opposite story. And no one batted an e…

During the run-up to the November elections, it was the democrat candidates who were against vaccines. Back then they were the "Trump vaccines", still under development. It's not unreasonable to assume that should Trump have won the elections it would be the democrats who would today (still) be against the "Trump vaccines". With his loss they became simply 'vaccines' and a great idea of the Biden administration with great plans for their distribution. I see no "batting of eyes" for this change of story. This provides an example of history being written by the victors.

Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#38

Post by [deleted] »

jfengel wrote: post #33
kian wrote: post #4

And here I thought the author was making a pithy observation about the fact that history is always written by the victors, and therefor almost always a form of disinformation about the losers.

History isn't always written by the victors. Often, it's written by the losers, who spend time dwelling on it. The most prominent example is the American Civil War, where great effort was made to propagandize it as The Lost Cause. But other examples include German histories of World War I and Thucydides history of the Peloponnesian War. The Onion made a joke out of it, but in a sense it really is an example that the…

[deleted]

Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#39

Post by js2 »

danbmil99 wrote: post #2

Apostrophes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjUOXJoM6rI

Disinformation: It's History is correct from the context of the piece. i.e. the piece isn't about the history of disinformation, but rather, how history is relevant to disinformation. Just look at the sub-title:

> But history can help to disentangle the unprecedented from the historical.

That said, the author (or maybe an editor) could have avoided any argument by not using a contraction instead of trying to be punny.

Re: Disinformation: It’s History

#40

Post by seppin »

johnp314 wrote: post #37
tonetheman wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great comment. People can believe anything. As a current example, in the United States the Republican party has been against vaccines. And have been telling their base to doubt them or not get them. Fox news has lead the way along with lots of other media channels. But for some reason they changed this week and started claiming everyone needs a vaccine. So the complete opposite story. And no one batted an e…

During the run-up to the November elections, it was the democrat candidates who were against vaccines. Back then they were the "Trump vaccines", still under development. It's not unreasonable to assume that should Trump have won the elections it would be the democrats who would today (still) be against the "Trump vaccines". With his loss they became simply 'vaccines' and a great idea of the Biden administration with…

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