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Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

nytimes.com

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Re: Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

#31

Post by matttproud »

donatj wrote: post #10
friseurtermin wrote: post #7

> Now, almost 30 years later, in what might be the most profound shift of all, the power dynamic between humans and Yosemite has changed. To see nature so vulnerable not only feels depressing, but wrong, disorienting and scary. Beautiful piece, but that's hardly the whole story. Nature doesn't care about climate change and it couldn't care less about us. Sure, it might kill all the birds, trees, landscapes, but our p…

> our planet will adapt. We, humans, won't be able to. We are by far Nature’s most adaptable creation, we live everywhere from the harshest deserts to the frozen tundra. I find the idea that we won’t adapt remarkably laughable.

Adaptation says nothing about the quality of life and a life worth living.

Re: Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

#32

Post by MuffinFlavored »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #16
donatj wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our planet will adapt. We, humans, won't be able to. We are by far Nature’s most adaptable creation, we live everywhere from the harshest deserts to the frozen tundra. I find the idea that we won’t adapt remarkably laughable.

Exactly. We'll survive, as a species, even if many will suffer - droughts, famine, mass migrations, conflicts stemming from both, extreme hot and cold weather in houses designed for more temperate climates for people used to temperate climates. Or to put it more harshly, the wealthy will be able to adapt. A lot of people will suffer and/or die.

> Or to put it more harshly, the wealthy will be able to adapt. A lot of people will suffer and/or die.

Sounds like evolution :/

Re: Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

#33

Post by soheil »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #14
donatj wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our planet will adapt. We, humans, won't be able to. We are by far Nature’s most adaptable creation, we live everywhere from the harshest deserts to the frozen tundra. I find the idea that we won’t adapt remarkably laughable.

Humans have been around 6M years. The Earth has been around 4.5B years. I find the idea “we” will adapt because of humans’ success in adapting over a minute fraction of the Earth’s existence remarkably laughable. People are also concerned about quality of life, not just survival.

Can we please just stop laughing for a minute? We pretty much dominate the Earth, it's odd you don't think we have been adapting every step of the way and will continue to do so far more competently than almost any other organism thanks to our reasoning power and its fruit, a highly capable advanced civilization. If the next pandemic hits and 7 billion people are wiped out that's adapting too because 1 billion survived. Please stop conflating improving quality of life vs survivability of our specie which is what the discussion about adaptability is always anchored in.

Re: Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

#34

Post by soheil »

It's odd some don't think we have been adapting every step of the way and will continue to do so far more competently than almost any other organism thanks to our reasoning power and its fruit, a highly capable advanced civilization. If the next pandemic hits and 7 billion people are wiped out that's adapting too because 1 billion survived. Alarmists need stop conflating improving quality of life vs survivability of our specie which is what the discussion about adaptability is always anchored in.

Re: Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

#35

Post by lotsofpulp »

soheil wrote: post #33
lotsofpulp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have been around 6M years. The Earth has been around 4.5B years. I find the idea “we” will adapt because of humans’ success in adapting over a minute fraction of the Earth’s existence remarkably laughable. People are also concerned about quality of life, not just survival.

Can we please just stop laughing for a minute? We pretty much dominate the Earth, it's odd you don't think we have been adapting every step of the way and will continue to do so far more competently than almost any other organism thanks to our reasoning power and its fruit, a highly capable advanced civilization. If the next pandemic hits and 7 billion people are wiped out that's adapting too because 1 billion surviv…

> Can we please just stop laughing for a minute?

It was tongue in cheek because the person I responded to wrote that.

> We pretty much dominate the Earth, it's odd you don't think we have been adapting every step of the way and will continue to do so far more competently than almost any other organism thanks to our reasoning power and its fruit, a highly capable advanced civilization.

Humans have been adapting, but not “every step of the way” was my point. It very well could be that we are living in a favorable span of a few million years out of few billion that are inhospitable to human life, with no guarantee of innovating technology to outmaneuver nature. The claim is humans’ survival has a large luck component to it.

> If the next pandemic hits and 7 billion people are wiped out that's adapting too because 1 billion survived.

That is not what most people mean when they say “adapted”.

> Please stop conflating improving quality of life vs survivability of our specie which is what the discussion about adaptability is always anchored in.

Again, the claim is that humans have been around for a microscopic amount of time in the grand scheme of things, and there are things outside of our control that could cause extinction level events at any time, to which humans would not have the time/intelligence to avoid. For example, asteroids/solar flare/disease/other things changes in the habitat that are greater than us.

Re: Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

#36

Post by soheil »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #35
soheil wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please just stop laughing for a minute? We pretty much dominate the Earth, it's odd you don't think we have been adapting every step of the way and will continue to do so far more competently than almost any other organism thanks to our reasoning power and its fruit, a highly capable advanced civilization. If the next pandemic hits and 7 billion people are wiped out that's adapting too because 1 billion surviv…

> Can we please just stop laughing for a minute? It was tongue in cheek because the person I responded to wrote that. > We pretty much dominate the Earth, it's odd you don't think we have been adapting every step of the way and will continue to do so far more competently than almost any other organism thanks to our reasoning power and its fruit, a highly capable advanced civilization. Humans have been adapting, but n…

Adaptability does not mean 100% survivability. If a billion people survive what do you call that? Extinction level event that did not extinct? Instead of saying humans are not adaptable you probably are trying to say be scared you tiny creatures you could die any moment, which is true but you’re not saying anything other than what religions have been stuffing into people’s heads for thousands of years, so I get worried. I don’t like to argue this point with you as I see you’re just repeating yourself and not seriously engaging with the points I raised.

Re: Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

#37

Post by lotsofpulp »

soheil wrote: post #36
lotsofpulp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we please just stop laughing for a minute? It was tongue in cheek because the person I responded to wrote that. > We pretty much dominate the Earth, it's odd you don't think we have been adapting every step of the way and will continue to do so far more competently than almost any other organism thanks to our reasoning power and its fruit, a highly capable advanced civilization. Humans have been adapting, but n…

Adaptability does not mean 100% survivability. If a billion people survive what do you call that? Extinction level event that did not extinct? Instead of saying humans are not adaptable you probably are trying to say be scared you tiny creatures you could die any moment, which is true but you’re not saying anything other than what religions have been stuffing into people’s heads for thousands of years, so I get worri…

I interpreted friseurtermin's usage of the word "adapt" to mean living in a future with similar or few sacrifices to the modern standards of living. I think when most people express worry about adapting to changes in the environment, they do not mean 1B out of 7B surviving, they mean large portions of the population losing access to clean water, hospitable temperatures, quality and easy access to food, etc.

For example, we can adapt to volatility in rain by developing irrigation, or volatility in soil quality by using synthetic fertilizer. But you cannot adapt to zero water, or extreme weather, or poor air quality, at least not without war, which also creates its own problems.

And yes, some will survive and "adapt" in that sense, but the notable difference is "adapting" in the recent past meant innovations that did not necessarily take away from others (at least in the short term). In the future, it would be more zero sum, and hence uglier.

Re: Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

#38

Post by adi4213 »

xadhominemx wrote: post #23
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The changes he's observing are not just from one year of drought. He specifically highlights a fire in 2018 leaving hills blackened and bare. In summer, the water comes not from rainfall but glaciers that are supposed to build up during winter. It's not just from this year.

That’s an even better example of my point. The size and frequency of wildfires overall is increasing, but the probability of a fire striking one particular area in a given 10 year period (ie, burn scar still obvious) is still very low.

One point the author also made was the impact of insects (perhaps bark beetles?) are having on the trees and attributed to the warmer temperatures allowing them to thrive and wreak havoc

Re: Opinion: What I Saw in Yosemite Was Devastating

#39

Post by TimesOldRoman »

donatj wrote: post #10
friseurtermin wrote: post #7

> Now, almost 30 years later, in what might be the most profound shift of all, the power dynamic between humans and Yosemite has changed. To see nature so vulnerable not only feels depressing, but wrong, disorienting and scary. Beautiful piece, but that's hardly the whole story. Nature doesn't care about climate change and it couldn't care less about us. Sure, it might kill all the birds, trees, landscapes, but our p…

> our planet will adapt. We, humans, won't be able to. We are by far Nature’s most adaptable creation, we live everywhere from the harshest deserts to the frozen tundra. I find the idea that we won’t adapt remarkably laughable.

Adapt to weather is easy. Adapting our thinking...well...hasn't happened yet. We continue to bury ourselves in trash and consume our home to death.
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