Building a vision of life without work (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#31

Post by ModernMech » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

  work - noun - activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

This article conflates "working for a living" and "work". In our society, we don't seem to consider work outside of employment by a corporation to be actual work. But activities like child care, elder care, household maintenance, community volunteering, pursuing an education, creation of art are all examples of unpaid work that we do every day that are important to society. Even open source coding for free is work. If you don't have to work for a living, there's still a lot of work to be done.

The flip side to this is, as a society, we should probably start paying for all the unpaid societal work people do for free. IMO this is the best argument for something like UBI.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#32

Post by vessenes » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

I find the FIRE folks very interesting. If you read the followup post at https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u... you will find out that this lifestyle isn't for everyone, or for everyone's partners.

One thing I think the FIRE folks can miss is the sense of worth, improvement in personal power and confidence that comes from struggling. Struggling could be making things, building a business, learning job skills, writing a novel, whatever. However, 5 years of just 'I checked my investments, I'm in within 1% of nominal, I guess I should feel no stress right now!' shouldn't be the end; many people interested in this lifestyle seem to feel like they have arrived when they can do that. As a launch point, it has its benefits. But to my mind, it shouldn't ever be thought of as a goal in itself.

I read the follow up post as a sort of tacit admission that the FIRE lifestyle can lead to this huge gap in personal development, and often during really key years for relationship and brain development, 30s and 40s are super prime years for learning and applying learning. It seems like a terrible waste to spend it sitting on one's metaphorical porch, sipping tea.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#33

Post by icedchai » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #3

This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives. It’s actually a common failure point of FIRE post-mittens that didn’t work out. Especially with couples, where it’s more likely that at least one p…

Boredom is my own personal fear. I hit my FIRE number back in 2018. I was going to retire at N amount or age 45. I hit N pretty early, couldn't pull the trigger, a few more years passed by. Now I'm almost double N due to stock market / money printing inflation. This is approximately 50x my yearly expenses. Ideal situation is 2 to 3 days of work a week, with very few zoom meetings, scrums, or other bullshit.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#34

Post by nend » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #7

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #3

This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives. It’s actually a common failure point of FIRE post-mittens that didn’t work out. Especially with couples, where it’s more likely that at least one p…

Got to admit that watching people struggle with the question of what to do without a job to fill their time is just completely wild to me. It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them. I have a list of things I'd like to do a mile long that I know I'll never actually find time to do…

It's a completely wild thought to most people. It's one of the reasons why so many people end up struggling with it. "That won't happen to me, no need to make a plan for how to avoid it or make a plan for what to do if it happens, because it's not going to happen."

Obviously not everyone has problems filling their time. But for most people it's difficult to imagine what it'd take to fill years worth of free time, when they've never experienced anything close to having to do that.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#35

Post by thaumasiotes » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #14

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #3

This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives. It’s actually a common failure point of FIRE post-mittens that didn’t work out. Especially with couples, where it’s more likely that at least one p…

> So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. People are different, I suppose. Perhaps not in FIRE circles but this is certainly discussed regarding 'normal' retirement, and I don't feel the same way at all. I'm in my twenties, and honestly think I could fill the rest of my life more than once with non-work. Espec…

> Do you really find yourself reaching the end of a weekend and thinking Oh thank God I have work tomorrow, I'm so bored?

The comment above you is channeling the common need to say anything, no matter what it is, in response to an attack on tradition. This is why people in Oregon hear about a proposal to make pumping your own gas legal and respond "but what if somebody doesn't know how?", as if it were difficult to know what would happen in that case.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#36

Post by quietbritishjim » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #20

kevinwang wrote: post #5

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

This follow up is way more compelling because it deals with the reality. I'm jealous of the authors communication skills and their partner's: there are some very hard statements in there about feeling worthless and falling behind because of no job. I wonder of those words were spoken calmly, or shouted through tears. Here are their discussions: https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/ TL;DR: He has to…

> [article author, to wife] ... I thought that what you wanted was to live a life of freedom, with me. We’d talked about this.

> [article author's wife] Not exactly. I wanted to have kids with you and work and be like everyone else. Live a normal life. I’m tired of being weird. And I don’t want to go back to work if you aren’t. That’s weird too. You wouldn’t even be a stay-at-home-dad. You’d be nothing.

> [article author] And that was it. That the second big ticket problem, critical issue #2. She couldn’t get her head around the idea that we were different.

I don't buy his analysis. I don't think she wanted to do those things because others were doing them. I think she wanted to have kids and a classic family and happened to point out, oh, by the way, other people do those things too. Maybe it's easier to think that your former partner is shallow and busy comparing herself to others, rather than admit that the desire to start a family is a normal and genetically ingrained emotion.

Ironically, his new partner has told him she's interested in having kids and they're both working. I know, it's easy to claim to understand from an armchair, and I'm not saying I've necessarily got this right, but it's definitely interesting to consider.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#37

Post by Aperocky » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

temp8964 wrote: post #30

kevinwang wrote: post #5

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

The conclusion came to me is that extreme working and extreme no-working are both bad in the long run. All you need is a work-family-life balance. I am also glad that the author now opens the door for getting married and even having a kid. Work, spouse, kids, the traditional way of life have been explored and chosen by human being for at least thousands of years. The psychological / economic needs for living with a f…

> slowly or quickly realize that you are just a regular human being like everybody else.

The earlier the better, one of the best revelation that I had is that 'nobody actually cares about me that much'. So much of the peer/social pressure are self inflicted.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#38

Post by solarengineer » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

decebalus1 wrote: post #18

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #3

This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives. It’s actually a common failure point of FIRE post-mittens that didn’t work out. Especially with couples, where it’s more likely that at least one p…

> This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives. This is a frequent misunderstanding about early 'retirement'. It's not about not working at all. It's about not working for a living. Very import…

I regular realise that a lot of my bucket list items don't require money and I then go do them.

I have also realised that there's no need to wait to write a book. I've procrastinated for many years and have finally got my act together and I'm writing one.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#39

Post by SavantIdiot » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

I'm 52 and have 2.5MM in an IRA (200k cash) and debt of just a $200k mortgage (and this is weaksauce compared to my peers who all became VPs or C*Os). And the idea of trying to live off an IRA that is currently stocks/bonds/ETFs scares the bejeebers out of me. I think it is more about the personality than the money: do you have the risk-tolerance like this guy to say "fuck it, it will all work out," or are you like me and think, "its still not enough ... inflation is gonna explode ... the market will collapse as soon as i quit ... if i stop working i'll never get hired again because i'm old ... if i retire early i'll probably get in car accident and go broke from medical bills...".

Some of us are just naturally full of panic, others can jump into the mist and be OK with that.

EDIT: Added this scene from Indiana Jones (#3) that has stuck with me my whole life (and I'm an athiest!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-JIfjNnnMA

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#40

Post by PragmaticPulp » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #7

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #3

This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives. It’s actually a common failure point of FIRE post-mittens that didn’t work out. Especially with couples, where it’s more likely that at least one p…

Got to admit that watching people struggle with the question of what to do without a job to fill their time is just completely wild to me. It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them. I have a list of things I'd like to do a mile long that I know I'll never actually find time to do…

> It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them

It’s not that simple. I felt the same way before I crossed the FIRE threshold and took some time off (mini-FIRE, I guess).

It turns out, most of the things I had been putting off weren’t as time consuming as I thought. I found myself regretting not doing many of them sooner, such as putting a few hours in on weekdays and weekends or scheduling a 1-week vacation to make a trip happen.

It’s hard to truly understand until you’ve crossed the threshold and tried it, but there’s a certain aspect of FIRE discussions that divides life too much into pre-retirement and post-retirement activities in a way that isn’t always necessary. In retrospect, there was little stopping me from doing most of the things I wanted to do while I was working, and plenty of people do manage to accomplish a balance of work and other things just fine.

I’m not alone in this. Even the author of this blog later returned to work after his interest in his writing hobby slowed to a crawl, his friendships started dwindling, and his relationship came to an end at least in part due to the FIRE lifestyle: https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...