How does that work across the EU though? Eastern Europe has minimum wages of just a few EUR/hr.
My guess? By adapting the UBI to local salaries and living costs. Kind of like Amazon is obviously paying more Luxembourg or Munich than Poland.
European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
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Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#32Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…
I have no idea if you are right or not, but it is a pretty wild political science theory that a policy can benefit too large of a majority of the population and therefore would be unpopular.
I assume the hypothesis is that the potential benefits would be spread too thin across the population to be considered particularly valuable.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#33[flagged]
If you don't like the inflation of the governments currency, just build your own. (Thats the libertarian argument when it comes to everything else privatized, e.g. roads, no?)
>If you don't like the inflation of the governments currency, just build your own
So crypto? Besides, it's not really an opt-out because you're still obligated to pay taxes, and network effects make it very hard for you to actually opt out.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#34Something I've been thinking about is how are addicts and mentally ill detected/addressed in a UBI society? Today it becomes apparent because when you have issues you tend to lose your job and have to join job seeking programs and/or contact social services. With UBI you could just fall through the cracks undetected. Has this been addressed by someone?
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Labor laws, entitlements, taxes, and other public policy are “organizing society”, and based on quality of life metrics most of Europe is crushing it. Sounds effective to me. I am an American living in a third world country in a first world suit, so I am admittedly biased.
Taxes are less destructive than radically restructuring the entire economy, which most UBI advocates seem to want to do. Median household income in the US is significantly higher than any EU country except Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark. I think most Americans who complain incessantly about how "third world" America is view Europe through rose-colored glasses. Any third-world aspects of the US (which do exist) a…
The real idea behind the UBI is to "radically restructure" the economy in a freedom-promoting direction, closer to something like the US today than current policy in the EU.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#36[flagged]
So what's your solution? I'm not holding my breath...
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#37How does that work across the EU though? Eastern Europe has minimum wages of just a few EUR/hr.
The initiative is apparently to introduce “basic incomes”, plural, which is presumably determined based on local economic circumstances. Not sure how that reduces “regional disparities” and achieves “territorial cohesion”, though.
All that will happen is people will pretend to live in rich expensive countries and actually live in cheaper countries. I already see this all the time with benefits.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#38Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…
I have no idea if you are right or not, but it is a pretty wild political science theory that a policy can benefit too large of a majority of the population and therefore would be unpopular.
I listened to a Tulsi Gabbard interview, and she said that was one of the reasons Obamacare seems half-assed. She said that the Democrats and Republicans both had opportunities to make compromises that would have benefited everyone, but they decided not to work together because it gives both parties something simple to argue about during election season. Democrats get to say "Obamacare sucks because Republicans are holding it back", and Republicans get to say "Obamacare is another big government program that doesn't even do what they said it would". Both parties are right, and both parties have no desire to fix it.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#39Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…
> Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population.
I think this isn't true. The UK got single-payer healthcare (with the creation of the NHS under the postwar Labour government) because it was felt that a national regime could deliver better health outcomes, following the experience of WW2. The NHS was enormously popular, thus it was embraced by the Conservatives, who beat Labour in the next election.
This is normal: successful welfare policies do not grant the party that introduced them lasting popularity and competent politicians understand this. A better model is that they are introduced because the party base wants the party to do it.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#40That logo of money changing hands makes a bad impression IMHO. It made me laugh, but I doubt that's their goal. It seems like self-parody, though I'm sure it's not.