Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#31

Post by vegetablepotpie » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

poutine wrote: post #10

goodcanadian wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing as leading by example. It is imperfect, to be sure, but it does have an effect. At the moment, Canada is one of the worst countries in per capita greenhouse gas emissions, so perhaps, we can try to do a bit better before blaming other countries. Someone has to go first.

Lead by example? If you think China gives a crap about your example you’re horrendously naive.

Not OP, but I can address this. Leading by example does not compel anyone to act, it works the same way that nuclear treaties do not reduce nuclear arms. But we still have treaties and we have had no nuclear war in the last 70 years. Leading by example is necessary but not sufficient for carbon reduction. But it removes accusations of hypocrisy when talking about solutions, which makes discussions much more productive.

China does have climate policy and it’s and issue that they do not ignore. They plant trees at the interface of deserts to prevent their expansion, they produce 80% of the worlds solar panels. China is the world's leading country in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over double the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States.

China has a lot to lose from climate change. They will see reduced agricultural production from prairie land, in a country of over a billion people. A starving population will not allow the current regime to continue and the Chinese government has every reason to come to the table.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#32

Post by jcfrei » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

xroche wrote: post #19

curiousgal wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile some EU nations are opposing the classification of nuclear energy as green for ESG purposes.. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-four-others-...

This is even more hilarious: Germany oppose nuclear, which is the greenest energy source in terme of emissions, but managed to get funding to use "green" gas: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_...

A big part of the problem are the green parties themselves. They were in many cases started as a youth movement against nuclear power in the 60s. The basis of these green parties consists of people who are ideologically opposed to nuclear energy and their youth rebellion against it is now part of their identity. This is why the leadership of green parties cannot support nuclear energy even though opposing it is completely nonsensical at this point.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#33

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

poutine wrote: post #10

goodcanadian wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing as leading by example. It is imperfect, to be sure, but it does have an effect. At the moment, Canada is one of the worst countries in per capita greenhouse gas emissions, so perhaps, we can try to do a bit better before blaming other countries. Someone has to go first.

Lead by example? If you think China gives a crap about your example you’re horrendously naive.

>> If you think China gives a crap about your example you’re horrendously naive.

Tell that to the legions of Chinese immigrants who have flocked to Canada in recent years. It happened during the Hong Kong handover too. The Chinese see Canada as the more tolerant alternative to the US. Canada's opinion on China matters because that opinion is shared by the many Chinese people living in Canada. What is naïve is to ignore the family and social connections between the countries.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#34

Post by chmod775 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #27

chmod775 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naive is only considering the absolute amount of emissions within some arbitrarily drawn lines on a map. The only metric that is fair, and countries like China will consider fair, is per-capita emissions. A Canadian can't justify causing three times as many CO2 emissions as a Chinese by virtue of being Canadian alone.

Per-capita emissions may be fair if it looked at where products are consumed , but in my experience the data only looks at emissions produced divided by population. Producer countries like China and especially Canada with their energy industry will look worse than they actually are because other countries have effectively outsourced their CO2 emissions to these countries.

That's very true.

You have the option of either attributing these emissions to the consuming country, or to not do so and hope that it creates a trade-equilibrium as a side-effect, where each country produces within their CO2 limits.

Either way, even though China is a producer country and far from being clean or sustainable, its emissions are still way behind certain large first world countries.

We (that is North America and the heart of Europe save France) really need to make more of an effort, only if to not look like massive hypocrites when we ask China to turn green.

There is a large push towards nuclear within China right now though - with a lot of research coming out of that country as well - they might beat us to the punch anyways.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#35

Post by curuinor » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

rglover wrote: post #29

ipaddr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an inconvenient truth we all avoid when we throw out climate change. There is nothing you can do to stop climate change. If you stopped all Canadians from producing any greenhouse gases the wildfires will continue and no one will have noticed. When two countries are producing the vast majority you are at their mercy. If Canada wants to bully, bribe or shame a country into submission it has to get bigger and…

> In the end anyone who has a cellphone supports climate change. Correct. And to your point, China is building coal plants, not decomissioning them [0]. What people in the West fail to understand is that in order for society to improve (and currently, remain stable), you need cheap, reliable energy. Renewables—seemingly, the proposed alternatives (wind and solar)—are neither cheap nor reliable. They're also dependent…

the _numbers_ say nuclear energy costs about $150/MWh and utility-scale solar costs $24/MWh. Moreover, nuclear costs are going up even in places where they can and will ignore planning commission things like the PRC and solar costs are going down.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#36

Post by Retric » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

rglover wrote: post #29

ipaddr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an inconvenient truth we all avoid when we throw out climate change. There is nothing you can do to stop climate change. If you stopped all Canadians from producing any greenhouse gases the wildfires will continue and no one will have noticed. When two countries are producing the vast majority you are at their mercy. If Canada wants to bully, bribe or shame a country into submission it has to get bigger and…

> In the end anyone who has a cellphone supports climate change. Correct. And to your point, China is building coal plants, not decomissioning them [0]. What people in the West fail to understand is that in order for society to improve (and currently, remain stable), you need cheap, reliable energy. Renewables—seemingly, the proposed alternatives (wind and solar)—are neither cheap nor reliable. They're also dependent…

China dropped from 80% coal in 2010 to 57.7% in 2019. China’s exponential increase in electricity production means they don’t have nearly as many old coal power plants, but looking at what their building today is very promising.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#37

Post by iNane9000 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

0xB31B1B wrote: post #22

jhgfddjn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially when you consider the economic impacts of "going first" it puts the CCP in a position where they're likely to gain the economic output you've banned, and then use that to gain even more of an upper hand against you

What are you talking about. China has already “gone first” they drove solar costs down below fossil fuel energy production cost. The change to green energy and decarbonization is a huge Keynesian economic stimulus. Decarbonizing is not about impoverishing yourself it’s about modernizing everything with tools that are demonstrably better in almost every way using government backed debt. It’s going to be a huge driver…

“ China has already “gone first” ”

Nobody believes this. China has a horrible record when it comes to pollution, and to make the opposite claim is a bit outlandish.

Here’s a question: why does 75% of all Bitcoin mining occur in China[0]?

[0]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-22256-3

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#38

Post by rglover » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

curuinor wrote: post #35

rglover wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the end anyone who has a cellphone supports climate change. Correct. And to your point, China is building coal plants, not decomissioning them [0]. What people in the West fail to understand is that in order for society to improve (and currently, remain stable), you need cheap, reliable energy. Renewables—seemingly, the proposed alternatives (wind and solar)—are neither cheap nor reliable. They're also dependent…

the _numbers_ say nuclear energy costs about $150/MWh and utility-scale solar costs $24/MWh. Moreover, nuclear costs are going up even in places where they can and will ignore planning commission things like the PRC and solar costs are going down.

Now address the reliability issue. Cost is only one factor.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#39

Post by Black101 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

elric wrote: post #3

And yet we'll continue to treat climate change as an inconvenience that can be addressed in 20 years, when - to quote Alex Steffen - we're not yet ready for what's already happened. https://alexsteffen.substack.com/p/were-not-yet-ready-for-wh...

Do you think that it's bad enough that it will do some major population control?

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#40

Post by AlmaElma » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

rglover wrote: post #29

ipaddr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an inconvenient truth we all avoid when we throw out climate change. There is nothing you can do to stop climate change. If you stopped all Canadians from producing any greenhouse gases the wildfires will continue and no one will have noticed. When two countries are producing the vast majority you are at their mercy. If Canada wants to bully, bribe or shame a country into submission it has to get bigger and…

> In the end anyone who has a cellphone supports climate change. Correct. And to your point, China is building coal plants, not decomissioning them [0]. What people in the West fail to understand is that in order for society to improve (and currently, remain stable), you need cheap, reliable energy. Renewables—seemingly, the proposed alternatives (wind and solar)—are neither cheap nor reliable. They're also dependent…

> (and modern solutions are both safe and have limited/reusable waste).

can you point me to something trustworthy that proves this point? I am not too much into the topic of nuclear energy but the last time I spent a night or two reading up on it the waste part still felt like a huge drawback.