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Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

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Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#31

Post by ternaryoperator »

diego wrote: post #7

I'm sure every day in the US there are many, many reports of structures with damage that needs to be fixed immediately (my house was one of them). Almost all of them don't collapse. Obviously there is a problem with the credibility of the reports because of conflicting incentives. Inspectors are usually from construction companies who want to get work, so they will always find something wrong with a building. Edit: I…

I didn't downvote you, but I'm pretty sure it's this sentence that got you the downvotes:

> Obviously there is a problem with the credibility of the reports because of conflicting incentives. Inspectors are usually from construction companies who want to get work, so they will always find something wrong with a building.

Responding for myself: I have read many such reports, met inspectors, and never ever had the perception which you label an "obvious problem." In my experience, HN doesn't take well to aspersions cast without supporting evidence, much less unsubstantiated aspersions qualified as "obvious."

Hope that helps.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#32

Post by megablast »

diego wrote: post #7

I'm sure every day in the US there are many, many reports of structures with damage that needs to be fixed immediately (my house was one of them). Almost all of them don't collapse. Obviously there is a problem with the credibility of the reports because of conflicting incentives. Inspectors are usually from construction companies who want to get work, so they will always find something wrong with a building. Edit: I…

I guarantee you, all houses and alertments will Eventually collapse.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#34

Post by icegreentea2 »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #19

Having read the report, I am stopping my monthly contributions to NPR. This is straight up quote mining as far as I'm concerned. Nothing in the report would lead me to believe the structure was in imminent danger if I were a resident / board member / inspector etc. This is trash journalism. Edit: I would like to note the following for people following this story: The report author has stated: “among other things, our…

The phrasing from the report:

> The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas. Failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially.

I agree that it doesn't say "it'll fall apart right this moment" (and well... it did take like 2 more years), but I would wonder why anyone would receive a report with the above phrasing and not seek clarification.

That all being said, we don't know if this specific thing was meaningfully involved in the collapse.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#35

Post by mdoms »

lxe wrote: post #33

Looks like the flat waterproofing was only applicable to the pool deck slab according to the report... is NPR's interpretation misleading here?

The report was issued in 2018 and warned that without expensive remediation the structural damage would expand exponentially. It may have started in the pool deck.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#36

Post by BobbyJo »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #24
BobbyJo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be a bad assumption. In some circumstances, inspectors with ties to construction companies may have incentives to add to the sales funnel, but I believe, anecdotally, that inspection companies tend to have no ties with construction companies to avoid the optics of exactly what you are describing. Anyone that's ever gone to a mechanic knows getting inspection come from the place that's supposed to do the wo…

While I understand your concern your viewpoint is naive. Civil engineering is a relatively close knit field (as are many fields). Possibility for kickbacks is definitely there. Something that has really put me off of license requirements is the relish that I have seen inspectors take in telling people they're going to need tens of thousands in renovations to bring a home up to code. Some of these items are things lik…

You're supposition and your anecdote don't tell the same story. Overly restrictive codes and under the table kick backs are two entirely different issues. They may stem from the same pot, but one is legal red tape and the other is clearly illegal.

That being said, you may be right, but I don't see anything that supports the parent comment's assertion about it being widespread enough to affect decisions around making repairs, especially in situations where the building is structurally not sound.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#37

Post by MattGaiser »

cm2012 wrote: post #22
KyleBrandt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default...

I can see why the condo didn't jump on this. There's not a lot of urgency on the repairs in the letter, and certainly no warning of "do this or the structure will collapse".

Would that normally be in such a document? Plenty of engineering type documents I have read don't lay out threats in plain English nor do they try to add emotional urgency to them.

Reminds me of this comment about how scientists sometimes understate how certain they are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG_s2PCH_c&t=785s.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#38

Post by flexie »

mdoms wrote: post #30
anonuser123456 wrote: post #19

Having read the report, I am stopping my monthly contributions to NPR. This is straight up quote mining as far as I'm concerned. Nothing in the report would lead me to believe the structure was in imminent danger if I were a resident / board member / inspector etc. This is trash journalism. Edit: I would like to note the following for people following this story: The report author has stated: “among other things, our…

So you'd be comfortable to live in a high rise building for which an independent engineering report contained the following text? The joint sealant was observed to be beyond its useful life and are in need of complete replacement. However, the waterproofing below the Pool Deck & Entrance Drive as well as all of the planter waterproofing is beyond its useful life and therefore must all be completely removed and replac…

It doesn't scream "Get Out", does it?

When I read those sentences as a layman, they don't tell me the building may collapse.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#39

Post by ARandomerDude »

mdoms wrote: post #30
anonuser123456 wrote: post #19

Having read the report, I am stopping my monthly contributions to NPR. This is straight up quote mining as far as I'm concerned. Nothing in the report would lead me to believe the structure was in imminent danger if I were a resident / board member / inspector etc. This is trash journalism. Edit: I would like to note the following for people following this story: The report author has stated: “among other things, our…

So you'd be comfortable to live in a high rise building for which an independent engineering report contained the following text? The joint sealant was observed to be beyond its useful life and are in need of complete replacement. However, the waterproofing below the Pool Deck & Entrance Drive as well as all of the planter waterproofing is beyond its useful life and therefore must all be completely removed and replac…

That statement is buried on page 7 of the report, no bold text. Yet, above it on page 6 a reminder to follow OSHA-approved window washing techniques is in bold.

Given the context and formatting, this warning seems more like a pro-forma CYA than anything else.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#40

Post by phnofive »

Someone correct me here - the PE report identified multiple structural(?) concerns with the concrete in the parking garage, and this is conflated as evidence that the inspector knew the residential building was unsafe? Are they not separate structures? Did the garage collapse as well?

The report makes clear that the integrity of the balconies on the residential structure couldn't be verified due to additional flooring materials installed by condo owners.

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