Minimum Viable Self • Hacker News Board

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#31

Post by rektide » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:39 AM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #24

okareaman wrote: post #10

I know very few people who want attention from strangers when they go out in public. Most of us want to be left alone while we go about our business. Online provides a forum for people to get the sort of attention we might like. "Look what I can do!" or "Look at me!" Still, one of my gripes about social media is that there are so many people who lurk. The lurkers are there to look at people attempting to get attentio…

> “‘No Spectators’ is a long-standing saying on Playa. You are encouraged to fully participate. It’s all about being there, being fully present, and not just observing. Two of the ten principles of Burning Man are radical participation and radical inclusivity, meaning that there are no outsiders. Everyone is part of the experience.” That sounds like shit the big head on the screen would yell at Winston in the opening…

Strong disagreement here! 1984 was about an opiated, programmed masses. Everyone was heads down, keeping to themselves in that world, doing as they were told, receptive. It was the ultimate spectator culture. Subservience was required, radical participation, radical inclusivity (thinking of others) was not.

You might be scared of strong messaging- a common thema to both scenarios- but the messages are about as opposite as it gets: RECEIVE versus BE.

Since being a school kid, I have felt that a lot of the world keeps a very very very strong filter up. They don't engage, they don't see most of the world around them, they selectively pick & choose a very limited part of the world to acknowledge & engage in. It's taken me a long long time to see & acknowledge how scary the world can be, to learn to empathize with how burdensome the outside world is, how infrequently being non-spectator & being receptive & engaged is rewarded, how usually slim those rewards are.

In many ways, there's a bit of a tragedy, especially in cities, where engaged people too often are not entirely well, not entirely kind, are not just engaged or interested benevolently but angling to attention, up to something.

I still really prefer a world where we can be heads up, aware of each other, aware of the world about us, casually participatory with each other as we go about. It's such a waste of personage, of society, when people keep to themselves, wrap themselves in their tight knit world, shut themselves off to the world: radical participation seems like such a natural expectation, such a natural way for each of us to be ante-ing in, a little bit, to the world we inhabit. Inclusivity to not tune each other out. But alas, yes, there is also quite the din in the world, many visible & worse & more dangerously many not obviously apparent unpleasant noisemakers out there, good reasons to just go about quietly, on your way, staying in your own world.

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#32

Post by Igelau » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:50 AM UTC

OnACoffeeBreak wrote: post #7

I appreciate the point being made from the outside. I have no social media persona (a decade-old defunct Facebook account might be it, plus HN which doesn't feel social in the same sense), yet I don't feel that I'm homeless in the virtual space. I simply don't inhabit it, and I don't feel that I'm missing out.

> I don't feel that I'm homeless in the virtual space. I simply don't inhabit it

That's refreshing. Frankly, I think there's something pathological about it when people conflate online media with places.

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#33

Post by Igelau » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

Zababa wrote: post #19

malloreon wrote: post #4

The term “meatspace” has always bothered me. It’s “real life.” The internet is the illusion.

I mean, you're a real person that wrote this, and I'm a real person replying to you. No one of this is not real. The image that I might make of you in my head and that you might make of me in your head are illusions, but so are the ones we make in "meatspace". Feel free to call the internet "siliconspace" or something like that, but it won't make it not real.

> Feel free to call the internet "siliconspace" or something like that

I think the word you're looking for is "cyberspace".

> but it won't make it not real

If I'm corresponding with someone via mail, are we inhabiting a postspace that is a real place? If I'm on the phone with someone are we inhabiting a voicespace that is a real place? If I'm reading a book, are the author and I in a space?

These are not places. These are media. It's communication as a phenomenon within real life, but to say any of these or the internet constitutes a place of equal primacy as the real world is just silly.

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#34

Post by oh_sigh » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

F_J_H wrote: post #11

OnACoffeeBreak wrote: post #7

I appreciate the point being made from the outside. I have no social media persona (a decade-old defunct Facebook account might be it, plus HN which doesn't feel social in the same sense), yet I don't feel that I'm homeless in the virtual space. I simply don't inhabit it, and I don't feel that I'm missing out.

>>I simply don't inhabit it, and I don't feel that I'm missing out. I've wondered about this - but how do you know what you are missing out on? For example, if you were active on twitter or LinkedIn and carefully cultivated those profiles, who knows what life changing connections you may have made? (I've seen several people comment on getting jobs, business partners, fellow hobbyists, etc. on twitter.) *edit: missed…

Actually, if you weren't spending time on twitter, you would have developed a cure for cancer and be a globally known multi-billionaire hero. But you had to settle for getting a job with a 10% pay bump over your previous.

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#35

Post by jonnyone » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:11 AM UTC

okareaman wrote: post #10

I know very few people who want attention from strangers when they go out in public. Most of us want to be left alone while we go about our business. Online provides a forum for people to get the sort of attention we might like. "Look what I can do!" or "Look at me!" Still, one of my gripes about social media is that there are so many people who lurk. The lurkers are there to look at people attempting to get attentio…

>Online provides a forum for people to get the sort of attention we might like. "Look what I can do!" or "Look at me!" Still, one of my gripes about social media is that there are so many people who lurk.

There's a lot to learn from lurking. My mother watches Tik Tok videos and doesn't post herself, but cooks more now than ever based on the ideas she sees on there. You can learn about a cultural trend, a social cause, a musician, a resource, etc. There are lurkers with agendas, sure, but many are just bored and don't take pictures of everything.

Message boards like this offer even more to learn. Many people repeat what's already been said. The lurker respects this or has nothing to say and moves on.

I don't like that Burning Man curator's quote calling their saying a form of "inclusivity" when it doesn't include the lurker. It also suggests that "being present" is necessarily not being observant, but doing things that are supposed to be done at their festival, which I don't agree with. That said, I'm sure a space like that would actively become less of what its meant to be if there were tons of people just spectating. They should own the exclusivity that they want.

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#36

Post by tonyarkles » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:17 AM UTC

rektide wrote: post #31

jancsika wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “‘No Spectators’ is a long-standing saying on Playa. You are encouraged to fully participate. It’s all about being there, being fully present, and not just observing. Two of the ten principles of Burning Man are radical participation and radical inclusivity, meaning that there are no outsiders. Everyone is part of the experience.” That sounds like shit the big head on the screen would yell at Winston in the opening…

Strong disagreement here! 1984 was about an opiated, programmed masses. Everyone was heads down, keeping to themselves in that world, doing as they were told, receptive. It was the ultimate spectator culture. Subservience was required, radical participation, radical inclusivity (thinking of others) was not. You might be scared of strong messaging- a common thema to both scenarios- but the messages are about as opposi…

I’ve never been to the actual burn, but went to a regional one once. And I agree wholeheartedly with you; it was the complete opposite of 1984. I was invited because of a dude I sat next to at a coffee shop once in a while and had some occasional good chats with.

The event was absolutely mind blowing, and I wasn’t really part of the “altered” crowd (I had some beer and a bit of weed, but no psychedelics or anything like that.) Within an hour of our arrival, I was helping a group of people I’d never met who were building a very large structure (that we burned to the ground on Saturday night, naturally.)

The biggest takeaway, for me, other than making friends that I still keep in touch with a decade later, was that the reality and social systems we take for granted every day are truly just systems we constructed and don’t have to be how they are. Sure, burner life probably isn’t sustainable as a long-term societal structure, but it was really amazing to take a vacation from normal life and drop into a completely different paradigm.

Everyone just pitched in and did whatever needed to be done to make it a great weekend for everyone. We built things, we shared food and drink, we sang ridiculous songs at Jerk Church on Sunday morning, we danced and didn’t care how stupid we looked, and we popped up a temporary community for a weekend. It really stuck with me.

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#37

Post by jonnyone » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:20 AM UTC

rektide wrote: post #31

jancsika wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “‘No Spectators’ is a long-standing saying on Playa. You are encouraged to fully participate. It’s all about being there, being fully present, and not just observing. Two of the ten principles of Burning Man are radical participation and radical inclusivity, meaning that there are no outsiders. Everyone is part of the experience.” That sounds like shit the big head on the screen would yell at Winston in the opening…

Strong disagreement here! 1984 was about an opiated, programmed masses. Everyone was heads down, keeping to themselves in that world, doing as they were told, receptive. It was the ultimate spectator culture. Subservience was required, radical participation, radical inclusivity (thinking of others) was not. You might be scared of strong messaging- a common thema to both scenarios- but the messages are about as opposi…

>I still really prefer a world where we can be heads up, aware of each other, aware of the world about us, casually participatory with each other as we go about. It's such a waste of personage, of society, when people keep to themselves, wrap themselves in their tight knit world, shut themselves off to the world:

It seems you have taken Wittgenstein's old phrase "the limits of language are the limits of my world" and substituted "language" with "social media." You are already aware of the people who don't participate, they do exist and participate in your world, you just want them to behave differently than they do. You want them to post more photos, engage more on social media. I've never seen anyone be so blunt about this who didn't run a social media company or work for one themselves.

I don't like people being more guarded and filtered than they would like to be, but I appreciate that there is more to a person than what they post online. The hiddenness of people can sometimes add to the intrigue of getting to know them.

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#38

Post by stadium » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:22 AM UTC

okareaman wrote: post #25

disantlor wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that this is a novel non-knee-jerk take on social media but not sure I fully buy it, mostly because the way commerce/the algorithm modifies this “stage” in real time. Art/performance always has and will have some commercial aspect, but it’s usually appears before and after but not during. Maybe the closest analog would be the improvising comedian that takes the set into a direction depending on what peop…

Thank you and yes, the algorithm is a problem. I may have a funny thing that one set of friends like, but the algorithm shows it to another set who don't get it because it wasn't for them, but because they logged on first or some other algorithmic input they get it and the others don't. Maybe FB should let me input hints on who I intend it for.

The algorithm should be the service!

I can tune my feed to receive whatever I want to optimize on, instead of what is most engaging and profitable to send to me.

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#39

Post by stadium » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:23 AM UTC

AlexCoventry wrote: post #28

okareaman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you and yes, the algorithm is a problem. I may have a funny thing that one set of friends like, but the algorithm shows it to another set who don't get it because it wasn't for them, but because they logged on first or some other algorithmic input they get it and the others don't. Maybe FB should let me input hints on who I intend it for.

> Maybe FB should let me input hints on who I intend it for. They do, but you have to pay for the privilege.

Can you elaborate? Paid advertising?

Re: Minimum Viable Self

#40

Post by stadium » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:25 AM UTC

username90 wrote: post #22

okareaman wrote: post #10

I know very few people who want attention from strangers when they go out in public. Most of us want to be left alone while we go about our business. Online provides a forum for people to get the sort of attention we might like. "Look what I can do!" or "Look at me!" Still, one of my gripes about social media is that there are so many people who lurk. The lurkers are there to look at people attempting to get attentio…

Facebook became popular because it was possibly to just observe and not be forced to participate. Everything before Facebook told you when and who viewed your content, Facebook didn't and explicitly banned any sort of apps tat could log who saw your stuff. So forcing participation sounds good in theory but in practice people love to lurk and hates being seen, even those who produce content. And since Facebook every n…

> Facebook didn't and explicitly banned any sort of apps tat could log who saw your stuff.

Except for Cambridge Analytica, the "who unfriended me" apps, and a plethora of other apps that extracted and exploited Facebook data.