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Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

cdsmithus.medium.com

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Re: Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

#31

Post by zozbot234 »

4bpp wrote: post #28
cdsmith wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the question. I'm the author of the article, and I can talk about why I included that paragraph. It's not because everything has to be about racial diversity. Rather, it's because I was already writing about some kinds of diversity, and when I reflected on people I know in the Haskell community, I realized that we've got some pretty interesting characters, and that this is due to communities like Tidal Cyc…

Not the parent poster, but I do think it's worth putting a finger on what might simply be a cultural gap between modern (and especially fairly plugged-in) Americans and others who either genuinely have not been socialised into the present-day US discourse about race or are deliberately acting defiant about it due to how it conflicts with the framework that they grew up with. It seems to me that according to present-d…

You're of course correct that mentioning so-called "race" as a legitimate category at all is extremely divisive outside of a very U.S.-centric and very intellectually-niche discourse, but there's also a sensible norm against injecting any kind of politics in quasi-professional contexts where people should be able to cooperate seamlessly across political, cultural, and intellectual divides.

These tiresome and uninteresting remarks about U.S.-centric political causes, no matter how worthwhile these causes may be on their own terms, stand out as an eminently avoidable reminder of uncomfortable social conflict.

Re: Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

#32

Post by [deleted] »

cdsmith wrote: post #24
vazyla wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a programming language we're talking about, not a political party.

As the author of the article, I hope it's clear that we're talking about the community that has formed around the programming language. Racial diversity isn't, to the best of my knowledge, mentioned at all in the Haskell Report or the source code to the GHC compiler. But when I'm talking about the community, that is all about the people in that community. Some of the people in that community have very different backg…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

#33

Post by nanna »

cdsmith wrote: post #24
vazyla wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a programming language we're talking about, not a political party.

As the author of the article, I hope it's clear that we're talking about the community that has formed around the programming language. Racial diversity isn't, to the best of my knowledge, mentioned at all in the Haskell Report or the source code to the GHC compiler. But when I'm talking about the community, that is all about the people in that community. Some of the people in that community have very different backg…

The effect, if not the point, of the HN posts here decrying diversity (heavens forbid!) is to force a discussion about the value of racial diversity and racial justice. To put them under question, even if the argument itself is lost. This isn't about your post, it's about far-right trolls trying to force their culture war discourse onto this forum. A good thing their posts have been flagged.

Re: Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

#34

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

nanna wrote: post #27
vazyla wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a programming language we're talking about, not a political party.

> Because it's a programming language we're talking about, not a political party. Categorically wrong. This is a programming language community that we're talking about. Haskell hasn't dropped out of thin air. It's the output of a mostly-voluntary community effort. To strengthen the community by making it open to people who have different backgrounds is to strengthen the language. The real question is why do you only…

> The real question is why do you only see racial diversity as a problem.

My question to you would be why did you interpret that person's comment that way? Rejecting the hyper-focus on racial diversity which is common in some parts of progressive Western culture is not at all the same as seeing racial diversity as a problem. I agree that in a broad sense a community is strengthened by diverse membership, but I don't agree that the White Guilt hinted at in the original article is constructive.

I think you've constructed a straw-man to argue against here, and that's not at a very nice thing to do.

Re: Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

#35

Post by rataata_jr »

cdsmith wrote: post #22
rataata_jr wrote: post #3

I really love haskell, but I cant understand why everything has to be about raical diversity.

Thanks for the question. I'm the author of the article, and I can talk about why I included that paragraph. It's not because everything has to be about racial diversity. Rather, it's because I was already writing about some kinds of diversity, and when I reflected on people I know in the Haskell community, I realized that we've got some pretty interesting characters, and that this is due to communities like Tidal Cyc…

Thank you for responding and keeping it respectful.

Re: Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

#36

Post by pjmlp »

xvilka wrote: post #6

Article mentioned Apple with their own mainstream language, I suppose Swift. But it's far from being mainstream, didn't gain the desired attention and failed miserably with TensorFlow. Thus, it's a niche language making no sense outside of the Apple ecosystem. Is not a serious contender to Haskell.

Swift is mainstream on the context of Apple ecosystem.

Not everyone cares about cross platform.

Re: Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

#37

Post by amelius »

kungito wrote: post #13
amelius wrote: post #9

Why can't FOSS projects get structural support from governments, the way science is funded?

Science is funded by money from projects. You write a project proposal and apply for funding. Isn't ghc funded by money from Glasgow University or something like that?

> Science is funded by money from projects.

Yes, FOSS projects are projects too? Or use subprojects if you need more funding for the same project?

Re: Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

#38

Post by amelius »

pjc50 wrote: post #25
kungito wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is funded by money from projects. You write a project proposal and apply for funding. Isn't ghc funded by money from Glasgow University or something like that?

Exactly - and the amount of effort this consumes is immense. You end up with grant-writing and paper-publishing institutions where the actual advance of knowledge is squeezed between the two.

There are companies who can do the grant-writing for you.

Re: Why I Support the Haskell Foundation

#40

Post by AnimalMuppet »

4bpp wrote: post #28
cdsmith wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the question. I'm the author of the article, and I can talk about why I included that paragraph. It's not because everything has to be about racial diversity. Rather, it's because I was already writing about some kinds of diversity, and when I reflected on people I know in the Haskell community, I realized that we've got some pretty interesting characters, and that this is due to communities like Tidal Cyc…

Not the parent poster, but I do think it's worth putting a finger on what might simply be a cultural gap between modern (and especially fairly plugged-in) Americans and others who either genuinely have not been socialised into the present-day US discourse about race or are deliberately acting defiant about it due to how it conflicts with the framework that they grew up with. It seems to me that according to present-d…

I think of it as a four-step process. Take Sonia Sotomayor, for a not-currently-controversial example. Step one is that she can't be a Supreme Court justice because she's hispanic. Step 2 is, she's hispanic, but she can be a Supreme Court justice anyway. Step 3 is that she's nominated to be a Supreme Court justice, and nobody mentions that she's hispanic. Step 4 is that, when she's nominated for the Supreme Court, people mention that she's hispanic, but in the same way that they mention that she was born in the Bronx - as background personal-interest information, not as a "does that disqualify her or not" issue.

The US started at step 1. It's moved to step 2. My personal impression is that it was moving to step 3, though I'm sure that at least some people will disagree. But it seems to me that the current progressive approach is dragging us back to step 2, not moving us toward step 4. And I think that the older approach, what you call "a framework in which the prescription for making sure historical instances of racism don't repeat is to banish race as a category from human thinking and discourse as far as possible", would have gotten us at least solidly to step 3, and maybe eventually to step 4.

I don't think dragging everything back to step 2 is progress.

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