The Swiss reject key climate change measures • Hacker News Board

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#31

Post by hobofan » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #7

* Swiss CO2 emissions (metric tons per capita): 4.17 * US CO2 emissions (metric tons per capita): 15.5 Switzerland is already among the lowest polluters in the EU and much lower than Australia/Canada/US. Just for context.

> EU

Europe, not the EU

From a ballpark look, your numbers look to be production-based accounting. If you look at Switzerland with consumption-based accounting[0], it looks pretty bad with higher per-capita emissions, and an upward trend while other comparably rich European countries have a downward trend.

[0]: https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/switzerland#consumpti...

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#32

Post by devdas » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

pyuser583 wrote: post #11

Is there a certain point where we say “it’s going to be worse case climate scenario, let’s prepare?” I’m asking for a friend from a different planet …

That was about two decades ago. Anything worse is going to be pushing humanity towards extinction.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#33

Post by ratsforhorses » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

dblock wrote: post #13

(I’m Swiss) This was a question of money. The Swiss were asked to be taxed (even more than they already are). They voted against the costs.

But 49% voted for it...of course elsewhere is "more broken" ..however it doesn't take away that often change is held back because of ...1-2%...

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#34

Post by PKop » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

davedx wrote: post #28

version_five wrote: post #19

The Swiss rejected some taxes. I think this is an important distinction compared to "climate change measures". The (very slim) majority may feel that such taxes are not the best way to deal with climate change, and support other ideas instead. There are a lot of politicians presenting the false choice of wealth redistribution or climate change apathy. There are other ways of looking at this, which I don't think are c…

Okay. Now do Swiss voters on migrants, refugees, and participation in science programmes of the EU. What you’ll find is that the Swiss are an insular myopic bunch.

Good for them. Ultimately they view their positions on these issues as best for the well being of their nation and its people. Who are you to say otherwise, should they pursue policies that go against their interests to satisfy foreigners? Why would they want refugees and migrants to come into their country? How would it benefit them?

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#35

Post by StavrosK » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

ratsforhorses wrote: post #33

dblock wrote: post #13

(I’m Swiss) This was a question of money. The Swiss were asked to be taxed (even more than they already are). They voted against the costs.

But 49% voted for it...of course elsewhere is "more broken" ..however it doesn't take away that often change is held back because of ...1-2%...

> however it doesn't take away that often change is held back because of ...1-2%...

Don't you mean "because of 52%"?

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#36

Post by Barrin92 » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

thysultan wrote: post #27

>car fuel levy, tax on air tickets. Non of which would have done anything but raise prices for the aforementioned, it was just a swiss politicians hustle to try and tax citizens masqueraded as "climate measures".

>Non of which would have done anything but raise prices for the aforementioned

.. which is the entire point? The increase in prices internalizes the cost of pollution. Putting a price on carbon is the most straightforward and economically sensible way to incentivize reducing emissions.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#37

Post by adamt » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

ratsforhorses wrote: post #21

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #7

* Swiss CO2 emissions (metric tons per capita): 4.17 * US CO2 emissions (metric tons per capita): 15.5 Switzerland is already among the lowest polluters in the EU and much lower than Australia/Canada/US. Just for context.

It would be interesting to see how much pollution is "externalised"... besides public transport and living density is a lot higher than most of the US, AUS or Canada... also how much pollution is caused by corporations from Switzerland...

Switzerland is not that densely populated. It’s 219 per square km. For context Florida is about 150 and California about 100.

Sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territori... https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/switzerland-p...

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#38

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

thysultan wrote: post #27

>car fuel levy, tax on air tickets. Non of which would have done anything but raise prices for the aforementioned, it was just a swiss politicians hustle to try and tax citizens masqueraded as "climate measures".

Taxing airlines tickets could reduce the demand for flying (especially in Europe), unless people have infinite money. How can this not help curb climate change?

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#39

Post by nradov » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

Google234 wrote: post #10

We need more referendums in the US. It would nice to see the people rebuke the far left and right more often.

California and some other US states have referendums (ballot propositions). Since the US is a federal republic it would be impossible to have national level referendums without sweeping changes to the Constitution.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#40

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

ISL wrote: post #30

Google234 wrote: post #10

We need more referendums in the US. It would nice to see the people rebuke the far left and right more often.

One might want to study the impacts of initiative voting in the western US. There are times when bypassing the legislative process is perhaps essential (term-limits for legislators?), but mostly it bypasses the compromises often made in representative democracies. Initiatives can impose new law without handling externalities well. It is possible to vote for "no new taxes" and "properly fund schools!" without balancin…

Note that the Swiss constitution was inspired by California’s, and improved on its broken referendum model in several ways.