Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#31

Post by pinkybanana » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:11 AM UTC

lottin wrote: post #21

timdaub wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intrinsic value argument is a funny one. What's the idea behind it? Assume you have asset X but then one key assmption fails. Now, is asset X still valuable considering the failed assumption? For land, you can say that even in the case that society collapses it is still valuable. Or is it? What exactly is the assumption that deems BTC's intrinsic value zero and land's value more than zero?

The point is that the process of bitcoin adoption is in fact a massive huge wealth-redistribution mechanism between adopters. Making people extraordinarily rich just because they were the first to buy a new currency and other people extraordinarily poor just because they were the last isn't probably something most people would agree with.

> just because they were the last isn't probably something most people would agree with.

Most people also don't agree on huge salaries and bonuses for CEO's, in practice the people with money are willing to pay those perks. When people vote with their wallets, does it really matter what the people not voting are going to say?

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#32

Post by pinkybanana » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:12 AM UTC

dangero wrote: post #24

FreeTrade wrote: post #18

Sigh. Bitcoin BTC, at 3 transactions per second, doesn't have the capacity to support El Salvador's economy. Even if Lightning worked (it doesn't), BTC doesn't have enough capacity to open channels for users at a reasonable cost. Salvadorians will end up forced to use proprietary payment networks denominated in BTC. BTC is not cash anymore, it won't work as such. There are other cryptos that could work, we'll have to…

Forget Lightning— Did you know you can transfer Bitcoin from one user to another on Coinbase with zero transaction fees instantly? Any exchange can do the same. Centralized layer two scales just fine for many use cases and is working today.

This. People just assume onchain txes and LN are the only way to scale. In practice centralized scaling via custodials has been there from the very early days.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#33

Post by gjulianm » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:13 AM UTC

dangero wrote: post #24

FreeTrade wrote: post #18

Sigh. Bitcoin BTC, at 3 transactions per second, doesn't have the capacity to support El Salvador's economy. Even if Lightning worked (it doesn't), BTC doesn't have enough capacity to open channels for users at a reasonable cost. Salvadorians will end up forced to use proprietary payment networks denominated in BTC. BTC is not cash anymore, it won't work as such. There are other cryptos that could work, we'll have to…

Forget Lightning— Did you know you can transfer Bitcoin from one user to another on Coinbase with zero transaction fees instantly? Any exchange can do the same. Centralized layer two scales just fine for many use cases and is working today.

But then why use Bitcoin if you're going to use what is essentially a bank?

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#34

Post by onion2k » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:13 AM UTC

dangero wrote: post #24

FreeTrade wrote: post #18

Sigh. Bitcoin BTC, at 3 transactions per second, doesn't have the capacity to support El Salvador's economy. Even if Lightning worked (it doesn't), BTC doesn't have enough capacity to open channels for users at a reasonable cost. Salvadorians will end up forced to use proprietary payment networks denominated in BTC. BTC is not cash anymore, it won't work as such. There are other cryptos that could work, we'll have to…

Forget Lightning— Did you know you can transfer Bitcoin from one user to another on Coinbase with zero transaction fees instantly? Any exchange can do the same. Centralized layer two scales just fine for many use cases and is working today.

Isn't that exactly what FreeTrade meant by "Salvadorians will end up forced to use proprietary payment networks denominated in BTC."? Coinbase might do it for free, but that doesn't mean the eventual winner will be free, nor does it mean that users couldn't be banned, or tracked, or forced to use 'supported' services, etc.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#35

Post by pharmakom » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:14 AM UTC

crypto-cousin wrote: post #28

Friendly reminder that Bitcoin was originally envisioned to replace central banks and debt-based money. Communities with these interests tend to be very antisemitic.

Friendly reminder to reject anti-semitism and then examine the merits of debt based money.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#36

Post by onion2k » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:15 AM UTC

pinkybanana wrote: post #7

tmarice wrote: post #2

This is either the best or the worst thing that happened to Bitcoin.

I think neither. El Salvador is very small country, and not big economical actor.

If the idea fails and gets rolled back it will be seen as BTC not working as currency at a national scale, even if the nation is small. Heck, if it doesn't work for a small country then it's less likely to work for a large one.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#37

Post by bawolff » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:15 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #4

The strictly limited amount of BTC makes this into a land grab. First comers are entitled to the services of the real economy due to their virtue of being first(or lucky to be on the right place at the right tweet). Musk is right on this one: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1401251430015582209?s=21 Unlike fiat money, BTC is not an accounting tool for value exchange. Unlike actual land, it doesn’t have any intrins…

That's how all money-esque things work. First mover advantage is pretty extreme in anything money related.

> I’m very curious to see an elite class whose core virtue is based on being an early adopter.

How do you think the elite class became elite? How do queens and kings get their power? By having some ancestor in the right place at the right time take advantage of an opportunity before other people tried.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#38

Post by hutzlibu » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:18 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #19

timdaub wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intrinsic value argument is a funny one. What's the idea behind it? Assume you have asset X but then one key assmption fails. Now, is asset X still valuable considering the failed assumption? For land, you can say that even in the case that society collapses it is still valuable. Or is it? What exactly is the assumption that deems BTC's intrinsic value zero and land's value more than zero?

The idea behind it is that it is useful beyond the accounting. Gold has a very little intrinsic value. Decorative and tool making value due to its physical properties are there but they are minor comparatively. BTC has none. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a value, of course but it’s simply a value within a certain ecosystem.

"Gold has a very little intrinsic value. "

Not really true, the only reason it is not used much more widely in electronic components, despite being superior to copper, is the high price it has, because of its function as value storage.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#39

Post by wereHamster » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:18 AM UTC

gjulianm wrote: post #33

dangero wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget Lightning— Did you know you can transfer Bitcoin from one user to another on Coinbase with zero transaction fees instantly? Any exchange can do the same. Centralized layer two scales just fine for many use cases and is working today.

But then why use Bitcoin if you're going to use what is essentially a bank?

Ease of access to and exchange with global marketplaces. I can transfer/trade directly from/to El Salvador without any bank being involved in that transaction.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#40

Post by echelon » Wed, Jun 09, 2021, 8:19 AM UTC

gjulianm wrote: post #33

dangero wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget Lightning— Did you know you can transfer Bitcoin from one user to another on Coinbase with zero transaction fees instantly? Any exchange can do the same. Centralized layer two scales just fine for many use cases and is working today.

But then why use Bitcoin if you're going to use what is essentially a bank?

To make the bitcoin investors rich.

Also to stick it to the man.

Nevermind the unprecedented new level of randomware hacks.