Free speech is table stakes for a free society. Those claiming otherwise are playing with fire.
Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
31–40 of 550 posts
Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s probably reasonable for an organization to choose not to conflate the civil liberties they stand for with amendments. In an ideal world the people would happily eliminate or modify laws that do harm, and of the existing US civil liberties, the 2nd amendment is likely the most debatable on whether it is a net win for liberty.
Even the most extreme proponents of the 2nd amendment have examples of it working The various police forces during the capital seige - in January, remember how that was this year - said they used less force because the participants were armed and knew they could shoot back Their whole thing is that they will make the state think twice, whereas the peaceful and unarmed protestors get knocked around with no recourse Wi…
The ACLU’s mission isn’t about defending the constitution, plenty of other organizations step up for that. Their scope includes all those liberties which don’t show up on the constitution which is a much larger issue.
“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as”
Many people just have a problem with word except on that line and so many other places in society. As such the ACLU’s goal is to push for improvements not simply defend the current situation.
Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Edit: placeholder (Decided it was unfair to throw a large org under the bus without being able spend a few hours to defend the claim.)
Or Anti-Defamation League.
Citation / explanation needed.
ADL's stated mission is "To stop the defamation of the Jewish people, and to secure justice and fair treatment to all..." It seems like the ADL has legitimate work it can be doing, unless you think Jews and all people are treated fairly. I don't think you're saying that, and I do think you're saying it's not doing the work that it could be doing. Could you say more about that?
"Of the 1,715 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:
60.2 percent were victims of crimes motivated by offenders’ anti-Jewish bias."
Anti-Jewish hate-crimes make up a majority of the anti-religious hate crimes in the US. (You could argue they should be classified as "Racial/ethnicity/ancestry bias" but that's another discussion).
The statistics aren't perfect - not every crime or possible crime is reported to law enforcement, and not every law enforcement agency in the US shares hate crime information with the federal government. A recent law changed that so it's required instead of optional, so likely more will be doing so in the future.
Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
#34I was a member for 10 years and stopped renewing a year or two ago, when it seemed to stop putting free speech and expression first.
Same. I was turned off by the “my way or the highway” mentality on trans issues shown in their Twitter. Failure to defend 2A rights, now that NRA is clearly not principled in any way (maybe it never was), also bothered me. It is hard to imagine them defending an anti-trans person in 2021. As despicable as those people are, they still have civil rights. As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 1…
The ACLU has never defended or supported Hellerian 2A rights (https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment), and its not clear that they should change their position due to a shift in SC precedent, anymore than that they should shift their position on speech if the SC decided to revert to Schenck.
Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
#35They phoned me earlier this year and asked for $1500 USD. I asked them why we live in a country where people are starving, exposed, and sick in a country that has a bounty of food, housing, and healthcare. “Liberals are leaving the First Amendment behind,” says a person who probably has all three of those things. Feed people, and then ask for virtues from them.
Free speech is how civil rights are won. It is a prerequisite for a positive change.
I know how much food $1500 will buy, or how many months of rent it will cover, or how little of a hospital bill it can handle. How much civil rights can $1500 buy? They didn't know on the phone, but I was genuinely curious.
I agree that free speech is essential -- I imagine that they asked for money because I gave them money in the past. Can you agree that the starving, homeless, and sick might have difficulty exercising their right to free speech even if the ACLU protects it in court?
Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
#36Despite the sad loss of the ACLU as an institution that cares about civil liberties, we can remain hopeful due to other organizations like FIRE. https://www.thefire.org
>Despite the sad loss of the ACLU as an institution that cares about civil liberties, we can remain hopeful due to other organizations like FIRE. You're just going to leave it there? What/who is FIRE? This isn't one of those unique words easily discovered during a web search.
FIRE is mentioned in the original article, including a contrast between ACLU and FIRE.
Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
#37You could write a similar article about a lot of nonprofits, lately. "Once a Developer of Web Browsers, Mozilla Faces an Identity Crisis." "Once a Free Online Encyclopedia, the Wikimedia Foundation Faces an Identity Crisis."
I think theres probably an interesting full book here examining exactly how and why "cause based" orgs become all end up looking the same once they cross a certain threshold. Power, influence and money seem to be a magnet for more of itself, so it fundamentally shifts the guiding principal of each org as it grows bigger. Like why do no-profits and charities seem to corrupt their aim at a greater speed than for profit…
Like why do no-profits and charities seem to corrupt their aim at a greater speed than for profit businesses?
It seems inherent to the different aims of charities and businesses. Nucor Corporation has a nominal lineage from "Nuclear Corporation of America Inc." incorporated in the 1950s. But its actual business has had nothing to do with nuclear technology in 50+ years; it found more success in the steel business. Shareholders aren't mad that the company isn't following its original nuclear technology mission since it found a better business. There's nothing to "corrupt" when a business goes after different markets.
But some donors will be upset if a charity focused on one mission broadens or deviates from its original mission. Some people may also be happy with these sorts of change, of course, but mission changes tend to be more controversial with charities than with for-profit companies.
Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Edit: placeholder (Decided it was unfair to throw a large org under the bus without being able spend a few hours to defend the claim.)
Or Anti-Defamation League.
The assertion that early 20th century Georgian (American South) police permitted a poor black man to get away with the rape and murder of a young white girl never really made much sense to me in the first place. The ADL seems dodgy from the start. I think the ADL has gotten away with framing Jim Conley.
Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
#39I honestly think they were compromised from the very beginning, with their mission of "defending every civil right... except the 2nd amendment, we don't like that one." But they still fought lots of commendable battles, sticking up for people that nobody else would. I think that's what they've lost... they would be scared to stick up for somebody that might get the wrong people upset with them.
I have far from an encyclopedic knowledge of the ACLU and it's history, so I could be wrong. I had thought they have in the past done some 2nd amendment cases, and continue to do so. Their position is less strong, maximalist, whatever you want to call it than some other groups e.g. the NRA. They also don't see the need to focus a lot of resources on those types of cases when other groups do that, and effectively.
Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis
#40Despite the sad loss of the ACLU as an institution that cares about civil liberties, we can remain hopeful due to other organizations like FIRE. https://www.thefire.org
>Despite the sad loss of the ACLU as an institution that cares about civil liberties, we can remain hopeful due to other organizations like FIRE. You're just going to leave it there? What/who is FIRE? This isn't one of those unique words easily discovered during a web search.
From context, I’d guess they are an organization who the parent commentator believes represents civil liberties better than the ACLU.
It seems they also edited their comment to include a link - seems pretty reasonable to me.