What I learned today: Never apply for a job • Hacker News Board

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#31

Post by ams6110 » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 6:28 PM UTC

Every job that I have found has always been through warm relationships that I have had with my peers.

My first job (sweatshop consultant doing mostly COBOL) was acquired through the college placement office. My next job (a year later) was through a recruiter who found the first employer a reliable field for harvest. That second job worked out pretty well, I was there for seven years. The technology was not very interesting but it was as very good fit for me as I was getting marriage and family life underway.

After that, everything has been by referral or word of mouth from friends/colleagues. None of those have been duds.

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#32

Post by mgkimsal » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

Last couple times I've gone through an interview process, I've been more than a little peeved because they didn't do any research on me beyond reading my resume. I'm the webspace - we're talking about a web-oriented job - Google me for goodness' sake!

Asking surface level questions that could be Googled in 2 seconds borders on insulting. They certainly will judge me by how much I know about their company, and how enthusiastic I am about the company. That needs to run both ways.

My wife just says I was looking for an ego-stroke. Well... why wouldn't I? I've worked hard for years both on building up my skills, but also trying to build up a reputation. To gloss over that and not do any research beforehand on someone you're planning on giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to over multiple years is just lazy.

These were people that called me, not the other way around.

The job/labor/work market is broken, and I don't know if there's a way to 'fix' it in the short term. It will evolve in to something more workable, but I don't see that happening too quickly.

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#33

Post by keithnoizu » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

It is interesting advice. I think the usefulness of job sourcing based off of your personal network may have it's limitations however. Especially for those career stage or geographically challenged individuals.

Personally I tend to only passively job-hunt by keeping my CV and skillset up to date. I don't think this approach has done too poorly for me, although possibly i'd be more excited to head into work for google or facebook every day.

Letting other people do the work of identifying the positions that need or benefit from your specific set of skills has its benefits and I tend to get a steady stream of contacts from the corporations I find worth while/interesting.

Now if I was dead set on gaining entry into a high quality, high-stakes start-up, I could definietly see the benefits of leveraging my network to find the best possible matches.

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#34

Post by keithnoizu » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 6:45 PM UTC

slindsey wrote: post #27

OliverSteenbuck wrote: post #6

sounds like a good strategy, at every job I've worked the first question following a statement of "We need more people" was "Does anybody know somebody who would fit in here ?"

Every time I say "I know the perfect person", my bosses say, "No, we need to 'put the feelers out' and compare. There's no way to know if your guy is perfect without interviewing to see who's out there."

It's silly. They need to feel useful. This reminds me of some previous employers who always breathed down my neck to lay off our current developers and find newer faster developers.

Sometimes you should go for what you have, especially if its highly competent, is vouched for by a valued employee and meets your requirements.

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#35

Post by m0nty » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 6:45 PM UTC

Just recently, I took a couple of steps to enhance my job searching. First was to post my CV/resume to jobs like monster.com; the second was a very old skool writing-a-letter-on-goddamn-paper-and-mailing-it-out-to-would-be-employers. The first has produced nothing but clueless phone-calls from agents. The second landed me a job with >90% certainty; I have a second interview next week. I am very well-qualified for the companies I wrote to, and I made sure I selected them very carefully (partly because postage costs actual money). This is relevant to the article since I'm not really applying for a job -- the company who want to hire me basically made a position for me.

Anyway, I'm starting to think that current online job searching is profoundly broken. It just seems to lead back to the clueless employment agents who know nothing about IT. Not much different from 20 years ago, it's just they have access to bigger databases and no incentive not to email scatter-gun fashion since there is no cost involved. I have no idea if there is a solution to this, but at least my retro approach eliminated two sets of middle-men: the jobs boards and the agents. It also put me very much in control which was an excellent feeling.

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#36

Post by walexander » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 6:59 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #32

Last couple times I've gone through an interview process, I've been more than a little peeved because they didn't do any research on me beyond reading my resume. I'm the webspace - we're talking about a web-oriented job - Google me for goodness' sake! Asking surface level questions that could be Googled in 2 seconds borders on insulting. They certainly will judge me by how much I know about their company, and how ent…

Did you not have your previous work clearly listed on your resume? Why would you expect, say, an engineer who just got FW your resume an hour before the interview to go google you and stalk your twitter feed?

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#37

Post by dpritchett » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 7:21 PM UTC

ecaron wrote: post #22

Sites like Monster are going the way of the yellow pages. And just like you could replace the yellow pages with asking neighbors who they recommend, there is a balance between finding good sources (using Google to find a plumber, using Indeed/LinkUp* to find jobs) and understanding the value of networking. There is a reason CareerBuilder drops millions on a SuperBowl ad each year and Monster spent over $1.2M at an em…

First I've heard of your site. How is it different from Indeed?

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#38

Post by mgkimsal » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 7:22 PM UTC

walexander wrote: post #36

mgkimsal wrote: post #32

Last couple times I've gone through an interview process, I've been more than a little peeved because they didn't do any research on me beyond reading my resume. I'm the webspace - we're talking about a web-oriented job - Google me for goodness' sake! Asking surface level questions that could be Googled in 2 seconds borders on insulting. They certainly will judge me by how much I know about their company, and how ent…

Did you not have your previous work clearly listed on your resume? Why would you expect, say, an engineer who just got FW your resume an hour before the interview to go google you and stalk your twitter feed?

If I'm interviewing someone, I will go research them beforehand. I've been handed resumes, and gone and done a google search. If there's no blog, no sourceforge/github, no homepage, no mailing list chatter, I've had that weigh in my decision.

Previous work is listed on the resume.

I didn't suggest stalking a twitter feed, but googling for me would indicate I do have a twitter account. And a blog. And a github account. And a podcast. And that I run a local user group.

To then be asked "so, what's your involvement with the tech community?". Or "what sort of tech work do you engage in outside of office hours?". That's just lazy. There are 2 people on the planet with my name. This isn't a case of "John Smith"-itis.

I also hate the calls from recruiters (I don't often take) that start with "I found your resume...." and end with "... send me your resume". Umm... you have it. YOU FOUND IT ONLINE. THAT'S IT. Sure.... they may have found one from 8 years ago - I get it. I tell them - "it's updated on my website and in multiple formats". If they can't be bothered to go to my website to download it, we're off to a bad start and this relationship isn't going to work.

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#39

Post by dpritchett » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 7:23 PM UTC

walexander wrote: post #36

mgkimsal wrote: post #32

Last couple times I've gone through an interview process, I've been more than a little peeved because they didn't do any research on me beyond reading my resume. I'm the webspace - we're talking about a web-oriented job - Google me for goodness' sake! Asking surface level questions that could be Googled in 2 seconds borders on insulting. They certainly will judge me by how much I know about their company, and how ent…

Did you not have your previous work clearly listed on your resume? Why would you expect, say, an engineer who just got FW your resume an hour before the interview to go google you and stalk your twitter feed?

Why would you expect a hopeful employer to wait until interview day to forward the resume out to the interview team? Sales teams put more effort into their pitches.

Re: What I learned today: Never apply for a job

#40

Post by cglee » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 7:23 PM UTC

shawnee_ wrote: post #11

While we're on the topic, I'm just going to say that those "anonymous" job postings here on YC drive me nuts "YCW11 company hiring front end dev! New office space! We There are a only couple YC companies I wouldn't want to work for, period. Mainly from the recent crop, but those bad seeds kinda ruin the whole "work for a random anonymous YC company!" recruitment tool.

Why can't you email and ask them who they are?