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Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

rarehistoricalphotos.com

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Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#31

Post by peteretep »

kureikain wrote: post #10
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #4

These are some great photos! But I really do wonder if "the winning side" was _actually_ the winning side. It seems to me that nobody won, and it's very likely that the Vietnamese people ultimately lost bigtime. USA fought a similar war a decade earlier in Korea and now South Korea is one of the preeminent countries in the entire world. Imagine what could have been for South Vietnam? Instead the entire country has be…

You are confused two thing though. First, it's a country and their people want to remain independent from the US. I don't see anything wrong with it. Their people, born in that country, fight that war, and they win. Second, after the war, the winning party didn't do a great job to improve the country and condition. That's another discussion.

It wasn’t a war of independence from the US, it was a civil war the US was dumb enough to get involved in.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#32

Post by mc32 »

rudolfwinestock wrote: post #12

[flagged]

That war was multi-faceted in many ways. There was the internal struggle between a corrupt government which was loath to reform (land reform as the US suggested) and on the other hand, the Communists who had become ideological and who killed and re-educated their own countryfolk from the losing side. Then there were external forces at play, France, then the US, the USSR and China. Finally the old guard was replaced by the new guard and VN and the US reconciled at long last.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#33

Post by DoctorNick »

amatecha wrote: post #21

What is the "winning" side? War comes at a massive cost for all participants. Interestingly the URL for the article implies the original name was "Vietnam war images from Vietnamese photographers" and was later changed to what it says now... I don't mean this as a slight to Vietnam whatsoever of course, I just don't understand using words "winning" and "losing" when anywhere from 1.5-4 million people died.

Really; More bombs in tonnage were dropped in three months than the entirety of WW2. The devastation wrought by the US on Vietnam is still being felt today, particularly the use of Agent Orange. The birth defects stemming from exposure are horrifying.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#34

Post by throw0101a »

nguyenkien wrote: post #25
throw0101a wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, it's a country and their people want to remain independent from the US. And some people did not want to live under socialism/communism, and asked the US in defending themselves. The two countries, North and South Vietnam, and their allies, agreed to end hostilities: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Accords North Vietnam then broke that agreement: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_spring_offensi…

Without USA & France we wouldn't suffer from that war

No doubt. And without the US and the UN the people in South Korea would be living in the same conditions as North Korea IMHO.

I'm honestly curious how a non-socialist/communist South Vietnam would look like. (I speak as someone whose family is from Central/Eastern Europe: so while I was not born in a totalitarian system, I visited family a few times while it was still around.)

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#35

Post by scamify »

amatecha wrote: post #21

What is the "winning" side? War comes at a massive cost for all participants. Interestingly the URL for the article implies the original name was "Vietnam war images from Vietnamese photographers" and was later changed to what it says now... I don't mean this as a slight to Vietnam whatsoever of course, I just don't understand using words "winning" and "losing" when anywhere from 1.5-4 million people died.

Well it certainly wasn't the USA, fortunately.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#36

Post by robocat »

tjpnz wrote: post #5
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #4

These are some great photos! But I really do wonder if "the winning side" was _actually_ the winning side. It seems to me that nobody won, and it's very likely that the Vietnamese people ultimately lost bigtime. USA fought a similar war a decade earlier in Korea and now South Korea is one of the preeminent countries in the entire world. Imagine what could have been for South Vietnam? Instead the entire country has be…

Have you seen Vietnam in the last 10 years? Sure, it's not what I would call a wealthy country but I didn't see much poverty either over my 6 months there - some of it spent in the countryside.

I definitely saw it years ago up north. And it still occurs today: “In some areas stunting is as high as 75 percent. I don’t recall coming across such high rates anywhere else in the world. The average in the northern mountainous province of Lao Cai is 40 percent, almost twice the national average in Vietnam.” - https://blogs.unicef.org/east-asia-pacific/visiting-nutritio...

That sentence implies the national average for stunted growth was 20% in 2015 - malnourishment is most definitely a sign of extreme poverty. Although I assume much of that is historical overhang?

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#37

Post by mturmon »

jimmies wrote: post #19

I am a software developer in the US with a Vietnamese origin, so I am no historian and my views are probably skewed. I am among the minority Northern Vietnamese people in the US, most Vietnamese people in the Bay Area are (refugees) from the South. People can tell where one comes from with one's accent. It was undeniable that much suffering and injustice was done for Southern people, especially after the war ended. S…

> They won because they took part in the war with a sense of righteousness.

This belief is certainly reflected in one of the best books I've read about the Vietnam War, A Bright Shining Lie, by Neil Sheehan, who was a reporter there throughout the war and devoted a large part of his life to chronicling it.

He repeatedly shows how the ARVN (South Vietnamese Army), from commanders down to recruits, were not deeply motivated in the same way the Viet Cong were - abandoning battlefields, taking bribes to leave the front, etc. Additionally, the South Vietnamese political class was a corrupt gerontocracy with little in common with the people (either peasant farmers or urban) they were supposed to be leading.

For that reason, early American observers said they'd rather be on the side of the North than the South.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#38

Post by alephnan »

dcolkitt wrote: post #23
tjpnz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen Vietnam in the last 10 years? Sure, it's not what I would call a wealthy country but I didn't see much poverty either over my 6 months there - some of it spent in the countryside.

I wouldn't say it's abject poverty. But it's certainly far less developed than South Korea or Taiwan, which is the most likely counterfactual for a free South Vietnam. OTOH you could possibly argue (though far more speculatively) that North Vietnam would've turned into North Korea from the paranoia, isolation and humiliation of a loss.

Vietnam did not have a derivatives market until 5 years ago with liquidity being a fraction of other capital markets.

It's hard for long term growth when farmers can't hedge an off season

Additionally, you can look at food scarcity rates and the unbanked population.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#39

Post by sharkjacobs »

henvic wrote: post #28
amatecha wrote: post #21

What is the "winning" side? War comes at a massive cost for all participants. Interestingly the URL for the article implies the original name was "Vietnam war images from Vietnamese photographers" and was later changed to what it says now... I don't mean this as a slight to Vietnam whatsoever of course, I just don't understand using words "winning" and "losing" when anywhere from 1.5-4 million people died.

Completely agree. The "winning" side might be politicians or high-ranking army officers. The population? In almost all cases, they are the real losers, regardless of which sides they sympathize with, if any.

Indeed! And you could say that the real "winners" of this year's Super Bowl were the fans and spectators! Or, more cynically, perhaps the advertisers and other corporate interests who profited from it.

That's a reasonable thing to say and not at all willfully ignoring what is meant when someone talks about the winner of a competition between two opposed parties.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#40

Post by temp8964 »

pirate787 wrote: post #9
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #4

These are some great photos! But I really do wonder if "the winning side" was _actually_ the winning side. It seems to me that nobody won, and it's very likely that the Vietnamese people ultimately lost bigtime. USA fought a similar war a decade earlier in Korea and now South Korea is one of the preeminent countries in the entire world. Imagine what could have been for South Vietnam? Instead the entire country has be…

China, which intervened in the Korean War at the moment of North Korea's complete military collapse, has not been held to account for the horrific North Korean regime it saved and still protects. China doesn't want a unified Korea and the North Korean people pay the price.

China fought in the Vietnam war too, just not as directly as the U.S. Without the U.S. supporting the south, the north will easily win with the full resource support from China.

People who don't understand the historical context like to say the U.S. did not need to involve in the Vietnam civil war. This is simply wrong. If the U.S. did no get involved, the Chinese Communist government will support communists throw over government one after another, millions and millions more people will die in civil wars and communist cleansing. The world will look totally different today.

Got downvoted on this. LOL.

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