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The Matrix Space Beta

matrix.org

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Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#31

Post by babelfish »

Arathorn wrote: post #29
spicybright wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sucks there's no open source project that mimics discord well. They all shoot themselves in the foot by over complicating the model. It confuses users, and makes creating stable clients hard. I don't want a tool-box of primitives and a recipe book. I want a decentralized discord clone not owned by a giant company. Let's start there and add the crazy stuff later.

To build an open source decentralised Discord alternative you need a tool-box of primitives - that’s what Matrix is. Then clients like Element ( https://element.io ) sit on top to fill in the rest. We don’t think the model for Spaces is overcomplicated. In fact it’s simpler than Discord (no role-based permissions; just power levels).

Is there any documentation detailing power levels, or that decision was made to only offer power levels but not role-based permissions? FWIW, the reason most major platforms offer role-based permissions is because enterprises demand it, and it’s become the de facto primitive for authorization. User type based permissions also make sense, but are often used in conjunction with (not in lieu of) roles.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#32

Post by socceroos »

Arathorn wrote: post #23
socceroos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see you use Jitsi and contribute back, where possible. Also, if you move on for reasons that aren't bike-shedding then I'd love to know what the architectural/technical reasoning is.

The main reason to consider something different to Jitsi is to directly use Matrix for decentralised e2ee signalling to manage the media streams, and allow hybrid SFU and MCU models (like hangouts or zoom) rather than pure SFU like Jitsi. We do like Jitsi though and already contribute directly and indirectly - Jitsi’s E2EE is derived from Matrix, and the Matrix community just contributed a tonne of a11y fixes to it t…

Wonderful! I think you've answered any questions I might have already.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#33

Post by jarbus »

Arathorn wrote: post #13
casual-dev wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once the audio chat feature is seamlessly integrated, I even consider ditching my old mumble server for it. Or not. Probably not. Our group just needs audio, with the occasional picture flood, until they get it out of their system. Since some (me include) won't use Discord due to privacy concerns, I still hope for a good and reliable self hosted alternative. A more modern user interface sure would be nice.

voice/video rooms are planned for June.

This has been the main thing preventing me from switching to matrix full time, very exciting!

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#34

Post by dieortin »

babelfish wrote: post #31
Arathorn wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To build an open source decentralised Discord alternative you need a tool-box of primitives - that’s what Matrix is. Then clients like Element ( https://element.io ) sit on top to fill in the rest. We don’t think the model for Spaces is overcomplicated. In fact it’s simpler than Discord (no role-based permissions; just power levels).

Is there any documentation detailing power levels, or that decision was made to only offer power levels but not role-based permissions? FWIW, the reason most major platforms offer role-based permissions is because enterprises demand it, and it’s become the de facto primitive for authorization. User type based permissions also make sense, but are often used in conjunction with (not in lieu of) roles.

https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation#power-levels

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#36

Post by viccuad »

sneak wrote: post #27

Do the Matrix clients still phone-home to some centralized server (Vector, I think it's called) as well as to matrix.org on every launch? That's what kept me from switching last time; to me a federation client that's going to phone home to a central server is no better from a privacy standpoint than using Signal (which isn't federated but is also end to end encrypted and phones home to its centralized server), and Si…

> Do the Matrix clients still phone-home to some centralized server (Vector, I think it's called)

There's no centralized server. There's a server with the majority of users for now (in matrix.org), but the network is decentralized, with many servers. The server implementation run by the majority is called Synapse, but there are others (Dentrite, Conduit, Construct..).

I'm puzzled by this comment. Can you elaborate on what you mean by phoning home?

Are you talking about https://element.io, which points to matrix.org homeserver and signing server, etc?

In that case, well, just use a different server and your own client. Or self-host, and select one of many clients: https://matrix.org/clients/. That's the whole point of federation.

You can even deploy your own web client pointing to whichever server default you want, many people do. E.g: element.debian.social, chat.mozilla.org, etc.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#37

Post by hda2 »

What is the E2EE story for spaces? Besides space names and member lists which I assume are visible to the server like normal rooms, what other information is also visible to the home server? Are rooms/subspaces inside spaces also visible?

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#38

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

Arathorn wrote: post #29
spicybright wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sucks there's no open source project that mimics discord well. They all shoot themselves in the foot by over complicating the model. It confuses users, and makes creating stable clients hard. I don't want a tool-box of primitives and a recipe book. I want a decentralized discord clone not owned by a giant company. Let's start there and add the crazy stuff later.

To build an open source decentralised Discord alternative you need a tool-box of primitives - that’s what Matrix is. Then clients like Element ( https://element.io ) sit on top to fill in the rest. We don’t think the model for Spaces is overcomplicated. In fact it’s simpler than Discord (no role-based permissions; just power levels).

Power levels feels like the most IRC answer possible, and breaks down as soon you want mutually exclusive abilities.

Why is this the preferred model?

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#40

Post by ajayyy »

danShumway wrote: post #30

Pretty exciting stuff, still trying to wrap my head around some of the technical possibilities outside of chat. Just to be clear, a room can be contained in multiple spaces, right? Or even, if I'm understanding it correctly, in multiple places in a hierarchy in the same space? The Element blog post talks about setting up admin spaces and community spaces. So if rooms aren't exclusive to a single space I could build c…

This was possible in the old Matrix community system as well, it acted more like a "filter" than a community though.
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