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The Return of Fancy Tools

macwright.com

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Re: The Return of Fancy Tools

#31

Post by breakfastduck »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #24
dawnerd wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's how I got my professional start too. It's code editor and file management was pretty nice for the time.

Mine as well...in 2015, at a university that maintained lot of small-to-medium complexity websites. It did the job well and was easy to work with, even if I sometimes felt like was carving in my 1s and 0s with stone and chisel. But if I were still working there I would probably replace most of the sites - which were largely abstractions of forms and tables - with something like power apps instead.

Still can't comprehend why we haven't had 'winforms' again but modern and not windows based.

Power Apps is good but not great.

Re: The Return of Fancy Tools

#32

Post by dragonwriter »

aunty_helen wrote: post #27
madeofpalk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear - you have to go in and actively make Jira worse to make it bad. If you stick to the modern defaults and don't add in additional workflows you'll be fine. It's certainly an indictment of Jira and it's technical legacy that it lets to make it bad.

I worked at a company that created a team of people to go in and actively make jira worse. Of course that's not what it was envisioned as, their actual job was to make jira fit the stakeholders requirements and buiness processes we had. However, sometimes your crappy 60 person company doesn't know what's best. If jira didn't have the ability to make it crap it would be a better product and people would update their p…

> If jira didn't have the ability to make it crap

Then your managers would buy a tool that did instead.

> maybe just try not to smush existing ms CRM workflows into a tool for devs.

If your employer wants a tool into which those workflows can be smushed and wants devs integrated into those flows, that’s what they’ll get.

Blaming a tool for supporting your management’s desires is...missing the people obviously responsible for the working conditions that are frustrating you.

Re: The Return of Fancy Tools

#33

Post by johnwheeler »

breakfastduck wrote: post #6

Must admit my comment is spurred by the first few words but my god Dreamweaver was so good in the early 2000's. I actually got introduced to it in ICT lessons at high school. Oh Adobe. The memory of their software is so nostalgic. Don't get me started, I'll be talking about macromedia shockwave next...

I got my start on Drumbeat which later was purchased by macromedia. I miss my spinning 3D text gifs.

Re: The Return of Fancy Tools

#34

Post by thrower123 »

madeofpalk wrote: post #7

> JIRA was replaced by GitHub issues This is absolutely... not the case. Sure, for some kinds of projects Github Issues might do, but for anything "real" Github's issue and project management is a serious regression. --- These tools are not replacing anything, but addressing broader and broader markets. They lower the barrier to entry and bring more people into the fold (perhaps at the expense at having a lower ceili…

I desperately just want something like Trello boards in Azure Devops...

There are boards, but they are so unwieldy. Just put all the work items on a board and let me drag them around and see everything at a glance.

Everything else with the source control and build pipelines and wikis is so good, this weakness is glaring.

Re: The Return of Fancy Tools

#35

Post by greatgoat420 »

I think there is something with this, and the minor resurgence of interest in C. I think people learn about the issues with memory and threads in C, use some other language and come back to C with better appreciation for what can go wrong and better care to keep things safe. C is the less fancy tool. It gets out of the way as much as VS Code does.

Re: The Return of Fancy Tools

#36

Post by 0xy »

breakfastduck wrote: post #6

Must admit my comment is spurred by the first few words but my god Dreamweaver was so good in the early 2000's. I actually got introduced to it in ICT lessons at high school. Oh Adobe. The memory of their software is so nostalgic. Don't get me started, I'll be talking about macromedia shockwave next...

My start was Microsoft FrontPage 2000, which I used for years even after I stopped using the GUI features for development.

I skipped Dreamweaver entirely and went to straight text editors.

Nowadays on the frontend you can more or less recreate the same effect with Webpack hot reloading. You get instant feedback on changes which makes for a supremely productive development experience.

Re: The Return of Fancy Tools

#37

Post by greatgoat420 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #29
madeofpalk wrote: post #7

> JIRA was replaced by GitHub issues This is absolutely... not the case. Sure, for some kinds of projects Github Issues might do, but for anything "real" Github's issue and project management is a serious regression. --- These tools are not replacing anything, but addressing broader and broader markets. They lower the barrier to entry and bring more people into the fold (perhaps at the expense at having a lower ceili…

I mean, it’s all very opinionated. I think at this point I am borderline “I would rather have no bug tracker than Jira.” Issues isn’t perfect but it’s the best I’ve ever used.

I have never used Jira, could you say more about your feelings towards it? Currently we use an old in-house solution and are thinking of shifting.

Re: The Return of Fancy Tools

#39

Post by moksly »

madeofpalk wrote: post #7

> JIRA was replaced by GitHub issues This is absolutely... not the case. Sure, for some kinds of projects Github Issues might do, but for anything "real" Github's issue and project management is a serious regression. --- These tools are not replacing anything, but addressing broader and broader markets. They lower the barrier to entry and bring more people into the fold (perhaps at the expense at having a lower ceili…

I’m not sure I agree, I think things like GitHub issues are actually replacing Jira for a lot of companies who either aren’t yet, or not too heavily invested in the atlassian approach.

We did a comparison program with a sister city who uses Jira for their entire process because it had been a good time-tracking system at the time, and we found that their project managers and developers spend around 5 hours a week on something that ours spend on average 35 minutes on. This is anecdotal and we’re not exactly real “software development” cases as we are small helper functions in major enter organisations, but it does speak volumes as to why using Jira in our little anecdotal setting seems terrible. This doesn’t mean our sister city will change their ways though, they won’t. So in a sense you’re right that jira isn’t getting replaced at their place, but it does mean we won’t consider it and will instead look to other tools.

Re: The Return of Fancy Tools

#40

Post by aunty_helen »

dragonwriter wrote: post #32
aunty_helen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a company that created a team of people to go in and actively make jira worse. Of course that's not what it was envisioned as, their actual job was to make jira fit the stakeholders requirements and buiness processes we had. However, sometimes your crappy 60 person company doesn't know what's best. If jira didn't have the ability to make it crap it would be a better product and people would update their p…

> If jira didn't have the ability to make it crap Then your managers would buy a tool that did instead. > maybe just try not to smush existing ms CRM workflows into a tool for devs. If your employer wants a tool into which those workflows can be smushed and wants devs integrated into those flows, that’s what they’ll get. Blaming a tool for supporting your management’s desires is...missing the people obviously respons…

Jira existed as a better product before this and gained popularity without this functionality. I used and championed old jira in this business but hadn't used it for some time.

A better realisation would have been that one tool isn't going to integrate everything in your business from developing software to dealing with customers billing.

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