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Kibbutz

en.wikipedia.org

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Re: Kibbutz

#31

Post by fighterpilot »

pydry wrote: post #30
fighterpilot wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more than happy to adopt the small handful of things that they got right, while rejecting all the other stuff that inevitably leads to misery, poverty, and mass death.

Like what other stuff? Separation of church and state? Rent remission? Postponement of commercial debt obligations? Pensions? Or the feminist stuff maybe?

> Like what other stuff?

Total suppression of the free-press and banning debt and interest, for example.

It only lasted for a few months so it's hard to say how far it would've descended into nightmare, but we have a long, long history of miserable socialist states with lofty initial ideals that survived beyond their honeymoon period for the purposes of that analysis.

Re: Kibbutz

#32

Post by solatic »

petra wrote: post #27
solatic wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand, I guess because I kept my post brief. This person was a software engineer working for a non-kibbutz company, so the non-kibbutz company was paying that person's salary to a kibbutz bank account rather than to the person. The salary was about $30,000/year for an end-of-career senior developer, who was easily worth triple that or more. From her perspective, she didn't see a point in trying to move jo…

That's interesting. I'm not sure that software engineer lost. If she only cost her employer a third of a salary, that quite a big bargain chip. She could have used it to get more flexibility, better job security, maybe a more interesting role, etc. But of course it still depends how people treated her and how she felt her status was. But that could go either way.

> If she only cost her employer a third of a salary, that quite a big bargain chip.

Maybe this would be the case if engineers were replaceable cogs in the machine. If every cog is the same, then the cheapest cogs make you the most money, right?

Except that engineering doesn't work like this. Engineers aren't directly replaceable, and replacement costs still need to be paid for anybody who would replace them. If you do not value the engineers that you have, then quite simply, you do not value them.

Re: Kibbutz

#33

Post by petra »

solatic wrote: post #32
petra wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I'm not sure that software engineer lost. If she only cost her employer a third of a salary, that quite a big bargain chip. She could have used it to get more flexibility, better job security, maybe a more interesting role, etc. But of course it still depends how people treated her and how she felt her status was. But that could go either way.

> If she only cost her employer a third of a salary, that quite a big bargain chip. Maybe this would be the case if engineers were replaceable cogs in the machine. If every cog is the same, then the cheapest cogs make you the most money, right? Except that engineering doesn't work like this. Engineers aren't directly replaceable, and replacement costs still need to be paid for anybody who would replace them. If you d…

I know of a software engineer that worked in a manufacturing plant.

The salary was significantly lower, but the the work was easier and the rate was slow. Heck he even replaced his manager once the manager retired.

Not everything is about money, as long as you don't need the money.

Re: Kibbutz

#34

Post by nine_k »

thekid314 wrote: post #6

Oooof, that is a pretty one sided wikipedia page there.

Please add a few hints on how it could be made more balanced, what is missing, etc.

Most of us readers haven't been to a kibbutz.

Re: Kibbutz

#35

Post by nine_k »

I wholeheartedly endorse the idea of kibbutz. It's a patch of peaceful communist living which you can walk into, and, most importantly, walk out of. A great demo of the upsides and the downsides of it.

I mean, between consenting adults, anything.

Re: Kibbutz

#36

Post by natmaka »

solatic wrote: post #4

Interesting to find this on the front page. I lived on a kibbutz for nearly three years, and left a few years ago. Like most insular communities, there's a lot to like when looking at it from the outside. People live in comfortable homes and have plenty to eat, with plenty of modern accoutrements like Internet access and the like. The community is quiet, with houses linked by footpaths instead of roads. The sense of…

I don't know about kibbutzim, however it seems to me that in many (most?) tribal zones such ordeals had at least a solution: some (many? most?) members were able to depart.

Confronted with some inept behavior, rule or chief... they will simply defect to another tribe (often to join other people, either defectors or individuals who departed to marry).

This was a king of regulator, as worsening internal politics progressively disbanded a tribe.

In our nations, today, that there are cases of such ordeals, and cutting chains may be more difficult or even impossible, especially for the non-affluent.

Re: Kibbutz

#37

Post by cutemonster »

petra wrote: post #27
solatic wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand, I guess because I kept my post brief. This person was a software engineer working for a non-kibbutz company, so the non-kibbutz company was paying that person's salary to a kibbutz bank account rather than to the person. The salary was about $30,000/year for an end-of-career senior developer, who was easily worth triple that or more. From her perspective, she didn't see a point in trying to move jo…

That's interesting. I'm not sure that software engineer lost. If she only cost her employer a third of a salary, that quite a big bargain chip. She could have used it to get more flexibility, better job security, maybe a more interesting role, etc. But of course it still depends how people treated her and how she felt her status was. But that could go either way.

> She could have used it to get more flexibility, better job security, maybe a more interesting role, etc

She could have had a 3 x higher salary and done all those things (or so I think, based on GP's description).

When you understand your own worth (workplace wise), the others respect you more, and it's simpler to change things the way you want.

Re: Kibbutz

#38

Post by nivertech »

Israeli kibbutzim are unsustainable model.

They only lasted for the following reasons:

1. exploiting external workers (new immigrants, Arabs, foreign Thai workers)

2. huge subsidies and debt write-offs were provided by the left-wing governments (until the right-wing redirected them to building in Judea & Samaria)

3. Stealing public resources: converting the free agricultural lands to real estate, privatizing public waterfronts for use in their B&B businesses, etc.

Similarly like Crypto is parasitizing on the global financial system, Kibbutzim were parasitizing on the Israeli state and its taxpayers.

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