Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions • Hacker News Board

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#31

Post by colineartheta » Sun, May 02, 2021, 1:29 AM UTC

_hyn3 wrote: post #3

tldr: Google's new app bundle signing might be a precursor (well, almost certainly is) to Google's being able to replace parts of and modify your app on the fly when installed by certain targeted users or within certain targeted countries at Google's whim, with users being none the wiser. Google might do this for a lot of reasons, and none of them seem to be good. FWIW, Google promises not to change the functionality…

Very curious to why you’re being downvoted. None of the other replies seem to give a good reason.

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#32

Post by toast0 » Sun, May 02, 2021, 1:32 AM UTC

est31 wrote: post #6

App bundles allow smaller apk sizes [0]: > Google Play uses your app bundle to generate and serve optimized APKs for each device configuration, so only the code and resources that are needed for a specific device are downloaded to run your app. You no longer have to build, sign, and manage multiple APKs to optimize support for different devices, and users get smaller, more-optimized downloads. But as all this logic s…

Smaller apks are great, but throwing away the security model to get smaller apks really isn't. :(

Has Google come out with a way to compress string localization information yet? That would make a big difference for apps that support lots of languages, and last I checked (which was a few years ago, so happy to be wrong), Google didn't have a good solution there.

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#33

Post by 542458 » Sun, May 02, 2021, 1:35 AM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #10

est31 wrote: post #6

App bundles allow smaller apk sizes [0]: > Google Play uses your app bundle to generate and serve optimized APKs for each device configuration, so only the code and resources that are needed for a specific device are downloaded to run your app. You no longer have to build, sign, and manage multiple APKs to optimize support for different devices, and users get smaller, more-optimized downloads. But as all this logic s…

I seriously doubt 99% of Google Play developers worry enough that they would take the time and money to run a signing server, and that would introduce a lot of complexity for Google.

The percent of developers is likely small, but that’s the wrong stat, as we don’t care very much about the ~90% of devs that have one or two apps with a handful of downloads. Rather, this is about attacking big targets - a small number of apps with massive numbers of downloads.

Put another way, the percent of total app installs coming from devs who have the resources to run a signing server is likely much higher.

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#34

Post by vnchr » Sun, May 02, 2021, 1:44 AM UTC

HDMI_Cable wrote: post #15

JollyMerchant wrote: post #7

Apple and Google, the Rockefeller and Standard Oil of our era.

I don’t want to be pedantic, but it would be more apt to say: “Apple and Google, the US Steel and Standard Oil of our era” since Apple doesn’t own Google.

That is quintessentially pedantic. Aside from that, thank you for the trivia.

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#35

Post by nodamage » Sun, May 02, 2021, 1:49 AM UTC

est31 wrote: post #6

App bundles allow smaller apk sizes [0]: > Google Play uses your app bundle to generate and serve optimized APKs for each device configuration, so only the code and resources that are needed for a specific device are downloaded to run your app. You no longer have to build, sign, and manage multiple APKs to optimize support for different devices, and users get smaller, more-optimized downloads. But as all this logic s…

> Which would give them ability to alter basically any app on the play store as they deem fit.

Google already controls the operating system, the Play Store, and the SDKs you used to develop your app in the first place. If they wanted to alter your app there is already ample opportunity to do so, what additional trust do you gain by managing your own signing key here?

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#36

Post by aesh2Xa1 » Sun, May 02, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

a-dub wrote: post #25

est31 wrote: post #6

App bundles allow smaller apk sizes [0]: > Google Play uses your app bundle to generate and serve optimized APKs for each device configuration, so only the code and resources that are needed for a specific device are downloaded to run your app. You no longer have to build, sign, and manage multiple APKs to optimize support for different devices, and users get smaller, more-optimized downloads. But as all this logic s…

it doesn't matter, they could just push an android update that bypasses your signature if they really wanted to. granted that's a bigger deal, but they control the ecosystem in google play and hold the signing keys for android and google play itself, you already trust them.

If the only person with the signing key is the author, then any user could verify the signature outside of Android, could they not?

Instead, even outside of Android, we simply cannot know.

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#37

Post by jayd16 » Sun, May 02, 2021, 2:02 AM UTC

est31 wrote: post #6

App bundles allow smaller apk sizes [0]: > Google Play uses your app bundle to generate and serve optimized APKs for each device configuration, so only the code and resources that are needed for a specific device are downloaded to run your app. You no longer have to build, sign, and manage multiple APKs to optimize support for different devices, and users get smaller, more-optimized downloads. But as all this logic s…

>a service where Google presents you an apk, and you sign it.

This doesn't work if the idea is to dynamically generate APKs for the vast Android ecosystem. In theory they could dynamically upgrade apps to be compatible with future OS versions etc.

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#38

Post by a-dub » Sun, May 02, 2021, 2:05 AM UTC

aesh2Xa1 wrote: post #36

a-dub wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it doesn't matter, they could just push an android update that bypasses your signature if they really wanted to. granted that's a bigger deal, but they control the ecosystem in google play and hold the signing keys for android and google play itself, you already trust them.

If the only person with the signing key is the author, then any user could verify the signature outside of Android, could they not? Instead, even outside of Android, we simply cannot know.

they could push an update that makes it appear like the author signed version is on the device, but in reality a different version is run.

they control the keys to the software delivery channel and the operating system. large parts of this are closed source. users and developers trust them and that's just how it is.

that said, it's not pretty and i hope it's just a backwards compatibility stopgap as discussed upthread.

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#39

Post by ashtonkem » Sun, May 02, 2021, 2:07 AM UTC

rubatuga wrote: post #8

corty wrote: post #2

Google Playstore is a walled garden, like Apple's. The walls are only growing higher and higher. Once Apple adds a layer of bricks, Google follows and vice versa.

Google has done the same with YouTube to create lock-in for content creators, just like the Play Store. My pet conspiracy theory, they're also doing the same with Chrome browser, by creating as many useless features as possible.

Every content creator I follow seems pretty desperate to get away from YouTube. Creating a system where critical content creators are rewarded by an algorithm that requires burnout behavior continually does not seem like a long term stable business design.

Re: Google I/O 2021 and Uncomfortable Questions

#40

Post by heavyset_go » Sun, May 02, 2021, 2:09 AM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #10

est31 wrote: post #6

App bundles allow smaller apk sizes [0]: > Google Play uses your app bundle to generate and serve optimized APKs for each device configuration, so only the code and resources that are needed for a specific device are downloaded to run your app. You no longer have to build, sign, and manage multiple APKs to optimize support for different devices, and users get smaller, more-optimized downloads. But as all this logic s…

I seriously doubt 99% of Google Play developers worry enough that they would take the time and money to run a signing server, and that would introduce a lot of complexity for Google.

> that would introduce a lot of complexity for Google

Oh well, they're imposing it upon everyone else.

Google controls what apps are distributed and run on over 40% phones and tablets in the US.

Users deserve the right to know if what they're downloading and installing is what they're supposed to be getting. Developers deserve the right to know that what's shipping to their customers is what they intended. Billions of people are vulnerable if the Play Store's infrastructure gets, or is, compromised, or if its owners or governments decide to do something nefarious.