OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker • Hacker News Board

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#31

Post by dylan604 » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

Aachen wrote: post #29

dylan604 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the R&D makes upt the majority of the price. When is that ever not the case? The version that is available now is not the only version that was made. This is something that has been thought about, made, revised, made again, etc. Things like this often go through multiple iterations. Hell, there will probably be a OpenAstroTracker 2.0 in a year.

> Of course the R&D makes upt the majority of the price. When is that ever not the case? Like, pretty much every other product that wasn't an entirely new concept in the last few years? Looking around me, I think the thing with the highest R&D price component is probably the chips in computers (desktop, laptop, smartphones), everything else is just mass production and low markup with hardly any research recuperation…

Great, Apple's new M1 based systems now exist on the market. Go make one for me for less than what Apple sells theirs. Should be easy according you since someone else is already doing it.

R&D is everything in making of something. Just because someone else made it doesn't mean you get to start exactly where they left off (except in cases of open source where you get their literal plans). Even in wood working or any shop type of work, you often spend more time setting up things like jigs or other custom tooling than it takes to do the actual work. Is that supposed to be a sunk cost to the builder? No, it is part of how the builder arrives at the price of the final thing being built.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#32

Post by Scene_Cast2 » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

krisoft wrote: post #2

If you have a black plastic object, why would you show it over a black background? It’s very stylish but I just can’t see it.

I think your issue is with the lack of brightness and contrast, and not with black-on-black (which, I'd dare say, is not a bad choice - see macrophotography, and how they are always looking for the blackest background materials)

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#33

Post by oivey » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

Aachen wrote: post #29

dylan604 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the R&D makes upt the majority of the price. When is that ever not the case? The version that is available now is not the only version that was made. This is something that has been thought about, made, revised, made again, etc. Things like this often go through multiple iterations. Hell, there will probably be a OpenAstroTracker 2.0 in a year.

> Of course the R&D makes upt the majority of the price. When is that ever not the case? Like, pretty much every other product that wasn't an entirely new concept in the last few years? Looking around me, I think the thing with the highest R&D price component is probably the chips in computers (desktop, laptop, smartphones), everything else is just mass production and low markup with hardly any research recuperation…

Just do it all yourself then? It doesn’t seem unreasonable that the creators of this want to make a little money off of something that almost certainly took a lot of their time. If the markup is too high you’re welcome to assemble your own.

R&D cost is built in to everything you buy, otherwise the companies that make this stuff wouldn’t be profitable. The amount of per unit R&D markup for, say, a thermometer just isn’t as high due to its relatively low complexity and huge number of units sold. This thing is niche and not going to sell that many units.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#34

Post by Tepix » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

Aachen wrote: post #11

Tepix wrote: post #6

This is pretty cool. Can the parts also be made with a laser cutter? The astrotracker appears to be a bit bigger than what i'm looking for: A DIY alternative to the Omegon Mini Track LX2/LX3.

I see that device is mechanical, didn't know that existed, that's quite cool! Is there an advantage to it not requiring electricity, though, or is it just the cool factor?

One less battery to worry about i guess.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#35

Post by spacemark » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

Aachen wrote: post #10

The kit costs over 200 bucks. I've been very causally considering whether to get into astrophotography, so don't yet know anything about it but I'm curious: what makes this so expensive? A printed frame is cheap, and the other major component is a way for it to automatically move. Are the motors the expensive part then, because they have to be so precise?

There are other options in this class, such as the Nyx Tracker at $125.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#36

Post by amelius » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

Aachen wrote: post #15

noir_lord wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of hundred bucks seems pretty reasonable. You have to source all the parts, make sure they work together properly and assemble the kit. I mean $200 isn't a lot of money for something you'd potentially get years and years of use out off.

Sure, but my question is why it carries this price tag, not whether I'll get years of use out of it. So if I understand your comment correctly, it's the R&D (making sure all parts work together correctly) that decides the majority of the price here, not one of the actual components?

The entire thing is on GitHub, so if you think you can build it for less then go ahead!

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#37

Post by beachy » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

delgaudm wrote: post #21

Not nearly to the level of this project, but if you want to dabble with taking long exposures of the sky: Consider the simple "barn door tracker"[0][1][2] to try astrophotography. After all was said and done my sky was too polluted for anything worthwhile, but the simplicity of it still intrigues me, and may be an intermediate step before going all in on the OAT. [0] https://garyseronik.com/build-a-hinge-tracker-for-…

Dangerous rabbit hole!

Must. Not. Enter!

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#38

Post by sink » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

elteto wrote: post #23

Aachen wrote: post #10

The kit costs over 200 bucks. I've been very causally considering whether to get into astrophotography, so don't yet know anything about it but I'm curious: what makes this so expensive? A printed frame is cheap, and the other major component is a way for it to automatically move. Are the motors the expensive part then, because they have to be so precise?

If you find $200 expensive for a piece of astrophotography gear you are in for a shock when you research actual prices! For example, the EQ6R Pro mount is a very popular and decent goto mount and it will set you back $1600. You will struggle to find any decent mounts for less than $1000. $200 is EXTREMELY cheap.

I think in general your point is correct.

However, this is not a fair comparison. In astrophotography, a primary consideration for the price point of a mount is its instrument weight capacity. The EQ6-R has a weight capacity of 44 lbs. This astrotracker has a capacity of 5.5lbs. The difference is, well, massive.

The EQ6-R also has other features, like a built-in polar scope and a periodic error correction. Mounts are also a lot like cars, in that some consumers purchase them for the level of support offered by the manufacturer, and perception of reliability.

With that said, I know I'm burying the lead and focusing on the wrong subject. $200 is very reasonable to get something that will probably provide very good initial results, and get that astrophotography addiction started. And I'm really happy this exists, at this price point.

I don't want to suggest the parent poster is really reinforcing this attitude, but in this hobby (and let me stress, it's a hobby), there is an occasional subtext that expensive gear is the only way to get great results. I don't think that's the case. You can spend as much as you want, of course, and money will let you do more things, but at the end of the day, we're just making sciencey art.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#39

Post by sink » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 8:03 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #31

Aachen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course the R&D makes upt the majority of the price. When is that ever not the case? Like, pretty much every other product that wasn't an entirely new concept in the last few years? Looking around me, I think the thing with the highest R&D price component is probably the chips in computers (desktop, laptop, smartphones), everything else is just mass production and low markup with hardly any research recuperation…

Great, Apple's new M1 based systems now exist on the market. Go make one for me for less than what Apple sells theirs. Should be easy according you since someone else is already doing it. R&D is everything in making of something. Just because someone else made it doesn't mean you get to start exactly where they left off (except in cases of open source where you get their literal plans). Even in wood working or any sh…

I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the GP.

Their questions are sincere. Your comparison to the M1 is not appropriate, and you're not actually paying attention to what they wrote.

They wrote that they are surprised that R&D makes up the majority of the cost, since this is an open source project. This is a fairly non-obvious feature of open source company business models. They give away the product, and its designs, for free, and solicit community collaboration. But it's usually complex or cumbersome to operationalize or build, so they then sell a set of services or pre-builds around it. Datastax and Confluent are two examples of this in the OSS domain.

Woodworkers don't market their plans as open source, put them on Github, and accept pull requests.

Don't create arrogant, sarcastic responses to sincere questions. It devalues this forum, and it's a bad look.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#40

Post by sink » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 8:10 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #30

Aachen wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but my question is why it carries this price tag, not whether I'll get years of use out of it. So if I understand your comment correctly, it's the R&D (making sure all parts work together correctly) that decides the majority of the price here, not one of the actual components?

Why are you arguing this? Are you really arguing the price of the unit because it's made from $2 worth of plastic, so why the mark up? Why does a car cost so much when there's clearly not $30k worth of parts in it. Why does a house cost $500k when there's only $70k of material. Trolls have to eat too I guess. From your continued asking of the "why" question, it makes me wonder if you've ever tried to build a DIY anyt…

I don't think this person is trying to argue this. They're asking a sincere question about a non-intuitive aspect of open source company business models, and they just keep getting answers that indirectly answer their questions in a veil of condescension and sarcasm.

This person is trying to have a discussion, you're trying to have an argument.

> Developing something like this involves a lot of the designer's literal blood, sweat, and tears

I retain a lot of water so I can see the sweat part. But I think blood and tears are an OSHA concern.