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The real reason to end the death penalty

paulgraham.com

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Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#31

Post by wojcikstefan »

spoonjim wrote: post #17

I have very strong beliefs about the death penalty. I believe it is the only just punishment for murder; that ALL murderers should be executed; that anything less than execution is a grave miscarriage of justice for a crime that is so horrible the mind cannot even wrap around it. I also think that pain should be part of the death penalty... that a murderer doesn’t deserve a quick and painless death but rather a healt…

I'm happy with the conclusion you have reached, but boy is your first paragraph terrifying. It seems that you're conflating justice and accountability with revenge.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#32

Post by reedf1 »

wideareanetwork wrote: post #12
tompccs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

I’m not trying to win an argument, just stating what I believe.

An argument is what it will boil down to because there will be a group of people who don't believe that it is "inhuman and barbaric". For the record - I agree with you, but I also recognize there are people who do not agree with us.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#34

Post by fighterpilot »

tchalla wrote: post #14
tompccs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

Let's assume the "innocent people get killed" argument abolishes death penalty today. What are the second-order effects of that argument which can be detrimental to the society that you can think of?

I'm curious, what do you think those would be?

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#35

Post by Reimersholme »

nikbackm wrote: post #9

Even if there were no death penalty, spending 30+ years in prison while innocent does not seem like such a good deal either.

Yeah. Hard to see how the same argument wouldn't apply to the prison system as a whole. We can be sure there are people imprisoned their whole lives wrongfully as well even without the death penalty - why is that acceptable?

If the argument is that currently, the false positive rate is too high - then what would an acceptable false positive rate be?

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#36

Post by cies »

This is very US-centric.

> at least 4% of people on death row are innocent.

I expect in Scandinavia these numbers are different. But they dont have death penalty.

From the news I learn that US cops also kill innocent people in the street. And it's military wages illegal wars killing 100s of 1000s overseas. I think the US has a weird relation with violence. The death penalty and how it uses it is merely a symptom.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#37

Post by neilwilson »

wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

Moreover life imprisonment is far more of a punishment. The individual has to get up every day and contemplate what they have done - with no way to end that other than the passage of time and the hope of commutation.

If you're from a part of the world where the death penalty was consigned to history decades ago, it's quite astonishing that a supposedly civilised nation would defend it.

The USA has some odd hangups.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#38

Post by aaron695 »

This argument is garbage.

Of course there will be miscarriages of justice and this has been talked about since the beginning. There is nothing new here.

> 4% of people on death row are innocent.

This is not true, but it's irrelevant anyway since what is the acceptable level? Since it's not mentioned, we have gotten nowhere in this blog post.

If we get it very close to zero, is it then ok then? Is the single incidence of executing a guilty man ok? Because either that's what this blog implies or it's skipping the real issues.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#39

Post by capableweb »

rswail wrote: post #20
optimalsolver wrote: post #3

Of possible interest, Texas records death row inmates last words before execution. You can read them all here: https://www.tdcj.texas.gov/death_row/dr_executed_offenders.h... My favorite is Delbert Teague, Jr. who quoted the oath of the Knights of Solamnia from Dragonlance.

Texas has institutionalized a barbaric entertainment around death row prisoners, with things like "last meals" and "last words". It's disgusting.

Or, a bit more charitable interpretation is that they are trying to inject a bit humanity in a otherwise very inhumane process.

For the record, I'm not for death penalty at all.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#40

Post by mettamage »

tompccs wrote: post #6
wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

Sure, from a persuasion point of view I agree. But from a "trying to understand another human" point of view, I'd recommend you to read the Wikipedia page on ethics [1]. My own education on the topic: a course in college (as a business student) and watching some of the Harvard lectures on ethics [0]. IMO ethics courses teaches people to gain a more fine-grained vocabulary on explaining their own positions and understanding other's positions.

GP clearly uses a deontological line of thinking on this matter. Something that GP considers to be "inhuman and barbaric" invokes a line of thinking in where he/she believes one ought to not do a certain action, because it simply is wrong.

I'm not the best at explaining deontological ethics, nor are the people who think like this. My point is: a lot of thought has gone into the types of statements that GP makes, and IMO it's worth thinking about.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

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