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Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

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Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#31

Post by aparsons »

mraza007 wrote: post #14

Aren’t data center employees crucial as they are making sure your services are running perfectly even in an event of emergency. Why not hire them and pay them better wages

Because Google turned the computers into a commodity. These employees swap out broken machines for the most part, but the software stack is so redundant that you can pull out a machine running a key job and the scheduler will simply retry it somewhere else. Similarly for files with GFS. All machines have their own battery so the possibility of the whole thing going down is slim. It’s beautiful how they’ve evolved from running on Sun mainframes in the early part of the century. The workers at the datacenters basically do mindless labour, so aren’t paid like a typical sysadmin.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#32

Post by cloche »

ct0 wrote: post #4
monkeybutton wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is any reason why they can't, they certainly have the money for it, they simply don't want to.

Unfortunately there just isn't enough of an intensive to pay more for the same labor. If contractors stop making them self available for the work, they may have butter luck becoming employees.

Don't they end up paying more though? Modis must be making a profit on the workers so Google could, in theory, hire them directly and save money.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#33

Post by PaulHoule »

One time I met one of these guys on a flight that was delayed out of PHL airport.

We were in a little ERJ-135 and never got a clear view of the line we were in because we kept turning corners, but when we were second-in-line for takeoff we broke out of the line and I could see a long line of big and small airplanes waiting behind us close to sunset.

I thought was a miracle, like a scene out of a science fiction movie.

He said "I can't believe I paid $1000 for this!"

I started asking him questions and found out he worked as a contractor running fiber for data centers operators by Google and Facebook and I picked his brain for 45 minutes about how a modern datacenter is wired up.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#34

Post by TigeriusKirk »

yanderekko wrote: post #28
the_jeremy wrote: post #11

Unlike Uber, Google has proactively taken steps to ensure contractors are not able to be considered employees. If Google wants to use contractors, for one reason or another, lawyers have told them they need to take these sort of steps. This whole article is basically complaining that being a contractor sucks because the law forces Google to follow these sorts of practices, but then blames Google for following these s…

Yep. It's an awkward situation. A lot of the data engineers I work with are CWs, and under the circumstances of normal interaction they're pretty much indistinguishable from FTEs. But there are all sorts of compliance reasons for why you aren't supposed to treat them as real "team members" with all the attendant perks and privileges. Many ICs will not even realize that their colleagues are CWs since it's not the defa…

>The "solution" of just converting them all to FTEs and effectively giving them massive boosts in total compensation is impractical.

Why is it impractical?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#35

Post by yanderekko »

TigeriusKirk wrote: post #34
yanderekko wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. It's an awkward situation. A lot of the data engineers I work with are CWs, and under the circumstances of normal interaction they're pretty much indistinguishable from FTEs. But there are all sorts of compliance reasons for why you aren't supposed to treat them as real "team members" with all the attendant perks and privileges. Many ICs will not even realize that their colleagues are CWs since it's not the defa…

>The "solution" of just converting them all to FTEs and effectively giving them massive boosts in total compensation is impractical. Why is it impractical?

Because companies reasonably try to avoid throwing away money?

I mean, I'm not sure exactly why companies higher CWs as opposed to just lower-paid FTEs. Could be a remedial stopgap to deal with issues in the "normal" hiring pipeline, I'd guess? But the answer to why they don't just throw extra money at people who are already willing to work for you is obvious.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#36

Post by flatiron »

mr_o47 wrote: post #10
flatiron wrote: post #5

i just left a 3+ year stint as a contractor at Apple. Some of the stuff from the article rings a bit true to my experience (we get "sad grey apple badges" and apple employees get colored apple badges, we don't get to go to any corporate events (even though we get the e-mails to attend with the asterik at the bottom loljk) but on the whole i always didnt really feel like a second class citizen too much. that being sai…

I can totally understand what it feels to miss out while seeing others enjoy at the same time.

true. 99% of the time i wasn't on campus so "come to the friday afternoon austin beer bash" e-mails didn't bother me as I wasn't in austin :). its more the silent power dynamic that i felt. if a full time apple employee is just spouting nonsense on a call, i was not going to make too much of a peep. but if they had a disagreement with me or one of my coworkers we usually just had to grin and bear it and "ohh yes of course we can do it that way". but thats life i guess.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#37

Post by caseysoftware »

donkeyd wrote: post #12

> Love the good pay. > It pays relatively well ($15 per hour for most contract workers). How is that relatively well? Compared to McDonald's employees, probably. Compared to other actual technical jobs, like electrician, I can't imagine. Compared to Google devs, not at all. Working 40 hours a week with no vacation that's about 31k. Being a contractor means no sick leave, vacation days, pension, insurance, etc. The US…

> Compared to McDonald's employees, probably. Compared to other actual technical jobs, like electrician, I can't imagine.

When someone has few work skills - as noted in the article - do they more closely resemble a McDonald's employee or an electrician?

Yes, people with low/no skills and little/no experience tend to start in crap roles. Some people will not further their skills, abilities, or knowledge and stay there. Others - like Ms Wait in the article - will use it as a stepping stone to pay the bills as they grow and improve.

Wiping out low level jobs by paying "too much" (yes, entirely subjective) raises the bottom rung of the ladder but also puts it out of reach of others. There's no magic right number but there are dangers in having it too low or too high.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#38

Post by dx034 »

randomifcpfan wrote: post #20

This is all due to Microsoft contractors (who were treated like regular employees in the 80s and 90s) winning a lawsuit that retroactively forced Microsoft to give them a ton of stock. Companies now have to be rude to contractors to avoid a similar lawsuit. https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/13/business/technology-temp-...

Or they could hire them as employees. This is not temporary work, they only use agencies to save money and circumvent workers protections.

I get that there are freelancers who like not being employees but that's not the case here. I bet most Temps at Google would love getting employee status and there's no reason most of them shouldn't. It's not like Google couldn't afford the extra payroll.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#39

Post by dx034 »

cloche wrote: post #26

I know someone who works as a contractor for Google (not through Modis). It's quite odd. They had to go through a lot of Google specified training, they only work for Google, their manager is someone from Google, the computer was supplied from Google, they're doing work that is directed by Google, they receive performance feedback from Google. But at the day, they're officially employed by this vendor company. I just…

Also looks nicer on the balance sheet. Basically Workers as a Service. Makes Google look much more efficient (in terms of revenue per employee) than it actually is.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#40

Post by dx034 »

yanderekko wrote: post #28
the_jeremy wrote: post #11

Unlike Uber, Google has proactively taken steps to ensure contractors are not able to be considered employees. If Google wants to use contractors, for one reason or another, lawyers have told them they need to take these sort of steps. This whole article is basically complaining that being a contractor sucks because the law forces Google to follow these sorts of practices, but then blames Google for following these s…

Yep. It's an awkward situation. A lot of the data engineers I work with are CWs, and under the circumstances of normal interaction they're pretty much indistinguishable from FTEs. But there are all sorts of compliance reasons for why you aren't supposed to treat them as real "team members" with all the attendant perks and privileges. Many ICs will not even realize that their colleagues are CWs since it's not the defa…

Why do you have to give them a huge boost in comp? There's no union at Google, they can pay whatever they see fit. They could just hire them at lower salaries but that'd destroy the image that anyone working at a FAANG makes at least $250k/yr.
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