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Le Corbusier as I Knew Him (1977)

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Re: Le Corbusier as I Knew Him (1977)

#31
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Architects can design buildings that solve social problems. But they can't use Le Corbusier's authoritarian methods - or any derivative of that mindset - to do it. This was a typical early 20th century worker housing project. It was pretty successful for the time - so much so it's now expensive and gentrified. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5114036,-0.2416956,3a,75y,... Most people want to live in low-density huma…

Those look not unlike American social housing on the East Coast (not NYC). I suspect structural concerns outside the building's design (primarily support for the people living in and maintaining them) are an important input. Edit: Here's an example, Highland Dwellings in DC. https://images1.apartments.com/i2/ydNxyNvVCntpdglekPc48HV9vv... https://livingnewdeal.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Highlan...

Philadelphia: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9249494,-75.1891835,3a,60y,1...

It is worth noting that a lot of these tower in the park type developments were demolished and replaced with mixed-income housing due to the problems. NYC is probably one of the last places where many of them are still standing (for lack of money to develop them, and also because there are about 600,000 people on the NYCHA waiting lists). But there was a huge federal pot of money for doing this in the '90s and '00s and many authorities did so.

From an architectural standpoint, the difference is that the British homes front the street, whereas your lowrise homes are perpendicular to it, and the towers in the park are generally pointed inward, away from the normal street grid. This has pretty bad effects on crime, because it removes the "eyes on the street" effect from passersby.

Re: Le Corbusier as I Knew Him (1977)

#32
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW the one opportunity he got to execute on his ideas on a city scale (Chandigarh), it turned out fine. > Le Corbusier dreamed of "cleaning and purging cities of disorder" with "calm and powerful architecture." (his words) His plan for Paris was never realized I can't help but point out that today's Paris is very much the product of a 19th C. rationalisation with broadly similar motivations and goals (including a d…

There is a huge difference between the Haussmann's renovation of Paris and the ideas of Le Corbusier. The goal of Haussmann was not to abolish everything that had been discovered and learnt by architects and city planners during the centuries before him, but instead to modernize and get rid of the obviously impractical designs. Pretty much like refactoring an old and messy code-base. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hau…

Yeah of course there's a wealth of difference between Haussmann and Corbusier, 70 years will do that. But if someone had that it was Haussmann that dreamt of "cleaning and purging cities of disorder" with "calm and powerful architecture" I wouldn't've blinked.

>The goal of Haussman was [...] to modernize and get rid of the obviously impractical designs.

That, and make the city easier to pacify with military force. Also it wasn't so obviously impractical. There was a lot written at the time about how Haussmann was destroying Paris by tearing out her heart and splitting her up and so on and so forth.

Corbusier's central thesis was that the world had progressed but architecture had not, to the point where previous architecture was obsolete. With the nostalgic and excessive neoclassical style of the beaux-arts dominating the 19th C. it wouldn't've been hard to get that impression. From the tellingly titled "Towards a New Architecture": "Engineers have been busy with barrages, with bridges, with Atlantic liners, with mines, with railways. Architects have been asleep." He was not alone in that conception. He wasn't even the first of the modernists to articulate it. This desire to make a clean break with existing tradition (which you cast as the unique and defining sin of Corbusier) is more or less the foundation and the entire point of Modernism.

Here's two examples that spring to mind. Loos writing in 1910ish alleged with new industrial processes the waste encouraged by the fact that styles go out of style made ornament criminally wasteful, so he advocated for architecture free of ornament. Theo van Doesberg and the rest of De Stijl gang took it in another direction around 1917, attempting to distil everything into category or continuum. In art and architecture this meant right angles and straight lines only (because angles are binary duh, though sometimes 45-degrees was okay), only black, white and the primary colours allowed, and the inside and outside of the building, painting, etc. existed as a continuum (Mondrian was a member for a while)

Re: Le Corbusier as I Knew Him (1977)

#33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between the Haussmann's renovation of Paris and the ideas of Le Corbusier. The goal of Haussmann was not to abolish everything that had been discovered and learnt by architects and city planners during the centuries before him, but instead to modernize and get rid of the obviously impractical designs. Pretty much like refactoring an old and messy code-base. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hau…

Yeah of course there's a wealth of difference between Haussmann and Corbusier, 70 years will do that. But if someone had that it was Haussmann that dreamt of "cleaning and purging cities of disorder" with "calm and powerful architecture" I wouldn't've blinked. >The goal of Haussman was [...] to modernize and get rid of the obviously impractical designs. That, and make the city easier to pacify with military force. Al…

The problem with Le Corbusier, in my opinion, is not about art style or aesthetics but about city planning and urbanism, or rather his disregard and even disdain for everything that worked for millennia.

Re: Le Corbusier as I Knew Him (1977)

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was against the concept of street. Light was more important than people. In fact, many of the proponents of this school of thought are going as far as considering that the constraint of having people living in their space is a hindrance preventing them to fully express their ideas. Architecture is Politics, and Le Corbusier is embodying the worst ideas of the 20th century.

I would upvote most of your answer, but your last sentence is somewhat overstated. Remember the worst ideas of the 20th century and how many people they killed.

https://brill.com/view/journals/fasc/6/2/article-p196_196.xm...

Re: Le Corbusier as I Knew Him (1977)

#35
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those look not unlike American social housing on the East Coast (not NYC). I suspect structural concerns outside the building's design (primarily support for the people living in and maintaining them) are an important input. Edit: Here's an example, Highland Dwellings in DC. https://images1.apartments.com/i2/ydNxyNvVCntpdglekPc48HV9vv... https://livingnewdeal.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Highlan...

Philadelphia: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9249494,-75.1891835,3a,60y,1... It is worth noting that a lot of these tower in the park type developments were demolished and replaced with mixed-income housing due to the problems. NYC is probably one of the last places where many of them are still standing (for lack of money to develop them, and also because there are about 600,000 people on the NYCHA waiting lists). B…

That's a fair assessment. I have to imagine that the design distinction of "complexes" (with, as you said, limited direct access to streets) rather than "neighborhoods" contributes. Such layouts make it more difficult for "outside" assistance to "enter" or "retreat" in response to appropriate circumstances. It turns out that making the primary concern of design the warehousing and cloistering of as many human beings as possible in as small a space as possible, far away from employment and resources, does not make as many strides towards the goal of promoting stability and healthy socioeconomic development as may have been hoped.

I'm a 90s kid and so was not familiar with anything but low-rise housing outside of old TV shows and grandfathered infrastructure; your timeline follows my experience, and also the general trend of halting progress on such issues of social justice, where the answer is and has long been known but is warped in execution by a continued, if lessening, marriage to clearly-incorrect-but-politically-attractive notions about what "those people" need and/or deserve.

Re: Le Corbusier as I Knew Him (1977)

#36
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Philadelphia: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9249494,-75.1891835,3a,60y,1... It is worth noting that a lot of these tower in the park type developments were demolished and replaced with mixed-income housing due to the problems. NYC is probably one of the last places where many of them are still standing (for lack of money to develop them, and also because there are about 600,000 people on the NYCHA waiting lists). B…

That's a fair assessment. I have to imagine that the design distinction of "complexes" (with, as you said, limited direct access to streets) rather than "neighborhoods" contributes. Such layouts make it more difficult for "outside" assistance to "enter" or "retreat" in response to appropriate circumstances. It turns out that making the primary concern of design the warehousing and cloistering of as many human beings…

It's worth noting that HOPE VI and the demolition of public housing solved the immediate problem of "the housing projects are dangerous" but did not solve the deeper problem of the people in those projects and their communities having issues with poverty and crime. There is some debate about whether or not HOPE VI demolitions mostly just served to disperse crime around a city rather than keeping it in problem areas; I can't find the articles anymore due to Google's dislike of older material, but it was blamed for general citywide crime issues in Chicago, for example.

(It was also a political marriage of convenience because in the '90s, railing against welfare was in vogue, and HOPE VI generally did not result in 1:1 replacement of public units, so it was a backdoor way to reduce the population on welfare.)

I don't really think the issue is density. Plenty of low traffic, low density suburban areas have high crime as poor people move into the suburbs; public housing had few eyes on the street because the design intentionally kept out passersby, and if anything suburban neighborhoods with high walking distances, mazelike streets and inconvenient, unpleasant walking environments are more extreme than that, and also have lower amounts of residents to boot. At least in NYC (and probably true of a lot of very inner-city housing projects) the towers in the park usually replaced existing urban neighborhoods at far lower densities than what had previously existed, because so much of the land was just idle greenery (that usually wasn't useful, in the form of small, segmented lawns often fenced off). Compare that with, say, Vienna, where the masses are housed in public housing in large midrise (5-10 story) buildings.

Coincidentally, this large midrise form factor is also what dense gentrifier buildings look like in many cities around the US, from Seattle to DC.

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