Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

tabletmag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 51 posts

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#31

Post by tpm »

xkriva11 wrote: post #19
inglor_cz wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Czechoslovak-born here. This is not completely correct either. Communists won the election in 1946 and formed a coalition government in which they were the strongest force, but not completely dominant. There were other "bourgeoise" ministers. Unfortunately, Communists controlled the ministry of the interior and cleansed the police of "reactionary elements", thus cementing their control over the civilian law enforceme…

There is an important lesson in it. People should be able to vote bastards, but this must always be reversible. If the Universal Declaration of Human Rights were part of the Czechoslovakian constitution at that time, this development would not be legal. However, at that time, it was not existing and, if it existed, it would be probably quite hard to put it into the legal system because of the fresh edicts against Ger…

That development was not exactly legal even then, but there was no one who would stop them because the superpowers carved up Europe and this was Stalin's area. He could do what he wanted.

1.2M.. I think the current estimates are 2.4M expelled Germans, not counting the expelled Hungarians from Slovakia (many of which later returned and were granted citizenship).

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#32

Post by dmos62 »

motohagiography wrote: post #17

It's frustrating to hear stories about writers under totalitarianism, not just because of the pervasive state oppression, but because not one of them will prevent it from rising again. Writers like Havel and Solzhenitsyn's work ostensibly contributed to the ending of the European totalitarian system, but only decades after it rose, and after those cultures were destroyed. I worked with people who left or escaped comm…

> movements infiltrating their communities

That became very specific very fast. I don't think that negative things happen because of "movements" infiltrating "movementless" communities. Further, even if you take destructive movements towards oppression, limited identification, hatred, etc., I'd argue those are just symptoms of wider problems. Addressing them has its place, but, if that's all you do, it's like treating chronic mouth odour with tooth paste.

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#33

Post by ceilingcorner »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #20
motohagiography wrote: post #17

It's frustrating to hear stories about writers under totalitarianism, not just because of the pervasive state oppression, but because not one of them will prevent it from rising again. Writers like Havel and Solzhenitsyn's work ostensibly contributed to the ending of the European totalitarian system, but only decades after it rose, and after those cultures were destroyed. I worked with people who left or escaped comm…

Ironically, a lot of artists who made reputations as dissidents chafing against a totalitarian regime, ultimately repudiated those dissident political views or even came to feel nostalgic for the Soviet regime specifically. Solzhenitsyn himself is famous for becoming a reactionary in later life and wanting heavy-headed leadership over his country, only this time it would supposedly be OK because it would be rooted in…

Czarist Russia and the Soviet Union were very different beasts and to label them both as simply heavy-handed is to paint with far too wide a brush.

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#34

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #33
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, a lot of artists who made reputations as dissidents chafing against a totalitarian regime, ultimately repudiated those dissident political views or even came to feel nostalgic for the Soviet regime specifically. Solzhenitsyn himself is famous for becoming a reactionary in later life and wanting heavy-headed leadership over his country, only this time it would supposedly be OK because it would be rooted in…

Czarist Russia and the Soviet Union were very different beasts and to label them both as simply heavy-handed is to paint with far too wide a brush.

I didn’t mention Tsarist Russia, because Solzhenitsyn wasn’t quite pining for that specifically, at least not in the form it took in its last few centuries. But the elderly Solzhenitsyn did see post-USSR Russia as beleaguered by enemies of the people, and he wanted those enemies dealt with decisively, even if it came to mass imprisonment and a return of censorship. This seemed to contradict the more open values that many saw in his early work.

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#35

Post by ppf »

motohagiography wrote: post #17

It's frustrating to hear stories about writers under totalitarianism, not just because of the pervasive state oppression, but because not one of them will prevent it from rising again. Writers like Havel and Solzhenitsyn's work ostensibly contributed to the ending of the European totalitarian system, but only decades after it rose, and after those cultures were destroyed. I worked with people who left or escaped comm…

Indeed, and the worldwide response to Covid has highlighted just how far down this path we have already come as a (Western) society. We already were a society of isolated, atomised, under-developed and ineffectual individuals, and that has only accelerated in the last year.

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#36

Post by inglor_cz »

Radim wrote: post #10
mjaniczek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody born after 1993 (thus into Czech Republic, not Czechoslovakia) who (thankfully?) didn't experience that period, thanks for the writeup.

As another Czechoslovak (born 1981 under socialism), I was eagerly awaiting inglor_cz 's response the moment I saw this article on HN :-)

Wow, TIL people take notice of me :-)

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#37

Post by watwut »

germinalphrase wrote: post #30
watwut wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that had nothing to do with "can't get more than three to five together at once" or "young men loosing sense of social identity and personal networks". Even you said, "they were surprised" over it. And my point is that person I responded to is projecting supposed contemporary isolation on back then, so that he can draw equivalence. And that equivalence is faulty. (And likely just serves to reinforce whatever cons…

I agree with you with regard to the historical specifics; however, the point about intentionally fracturing communities and suppressing communication is consistent with authoritarian oppression of all kinds.

In that however, forcing you into to "right" network is as much if not more important. They don't want you all to be isolated. They want you all to have right social group that is naturally going to push you mold you toward "right" opinions and behavior. So you being part of church community is a problem, but alternative is not being alone, the alternative is being in party sport club or other institution.

In that context, loners and isolated people are suspect and vulnerable, because they are different and not subject of normal peer pressures that comes with relationships.

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#38

Post by germinalphrase »

watwut wrote: post #37
germinalphrase wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you with regard to the historical specifics; however, the point about intentionally fracturing communities and suppressing communication is consistent with authoritarian oppression of all kinds.

In that however, forcing you into to "right" network is as much if not more important. They don't want you all to be isolated. They want you all to have right social group that is naturally going to push you mold you toward "right" opinions and behavior. So you being part of church community is a problem, but alternative is not being alone, the alternative is being in party sport club or other institution. In that co…

Sure. Loners and isolated people are less useful, but they are also non-threatening beyond stochastic violent events. They may develop undesirable ideas or ideologies, but that’s generally irrelevant due to their social isolation.

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#39

Post by motohagiography »

watwut wrote: post #25
flohofwoe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be true on the surface, but at least in East Germany, people were shocked/angry/surprised when they read their Stasi file and found out that within their small social circle there was usually at least one spook who reported them to the Stasi (so called 'IMs' - Inoffizielle Mitarbeiter) - often somebody they wouldn't have suspected or even considered a friend. You literally couldn't trust anyone, except maybe cl…

But that had nothing to do with "can't get more than three to five together at once" or "young men loosing sense of social identity and personal networks". Even you said, "they were surprised" over it. And my point is that person I responded to is projecting supposed contemporary isolation on back then, so that he can draw equivalence. And that equivalence is faulty. (And likely just serves to reinforce whatever cons…

I'm going to address this directly: the term is called "atomization," and it was specifically a technique of all totalitarian movements of the 20th century. I recommend Hannah Arendt's treatment of it in "ideology and terror," and previous chapters.

It's not a right/left thing, it's a totalitarian thing. It is a sophisticated idea, and isn't just a synonym for authoritarianism or bad guys. It is an artifact of the modern era. The only thing standing in the way of totalitarian movements (which are necessarily non-national, and with global goals) is the integrity of ideas of truth, self, and of personal and spiritual relationships.

Re: The Tourist: Philip Roth’s Czech KGB File

#40

Post by vkou »

xkriva11 wrote: post #19
inglor_cz wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Czechoslovak-born here. This is not completely correct either. Communists won the election in 1946 and formed a coalition government in which they were the strongest force, but not completely dominant. There were other "bourgeoise" ministers. Unfortunately, Communists controlled the ministry of the interior and cleansed the police of "reactionary elements", thus cementing their control over the civilian law enforceme…

There is an important lesson in it. People should be able to vote bastards, but this must always be reversible. If the Universal Declaration of Human Rights were part of the Czechoslovakian constitution at that time, this development would not be legal. However, at that time, it was not existing and, if it existed, it would be probably quite hard to put it into the legal system because of the fresh edicts against Ger…

> You cannot displace 1.2M of people and try to look as a democratic state (no matter how necessary it was).

There are a number of democratic states that have happily uprooted a lot more people than that, both before, and after WW2. Most of them haven't failed.

Post reply on HN