As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy' • Hacker News Board

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#31

Post by Syonyk » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

legerdemain wrote: post #9

What you call "bad information" I call "a difference of opinion." And I call your attempts to institute mass re-education in "digital literacy" to "combat" this "bad information" suppression of free thought and oppression of contrarian and non-mainstream voices.

It depends heavily on what you're calling "bad information."

There are certainly cases where there's a difference of opinion - different interpretations of some external reality.

But there is also "bad information" in the form of "literally made up, entirely, with no basis in reality." There exist clickfarms that do literally this - make up fictions for some "legitimate sounding news site" for nothing beyond the ad revenue of driving people to those sites on social media platforms.

"Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both secretly space aliens from a satellite orbiting Alpha Centauri and are here to supervise the farming of US citizens to be turned into cattle feed for alien cows" would be the sort of "totally fake" thing I'm referring to - nothing in that statement stands any real chance of being true (I hope... it's hard to outpace reality in absurdity some weeks), but plenty of similarly absurd articles exist on the internet. A lot of them get clicks, some of them get an awful lot of clicks.

Teaching student to be able to properly analyze an information source goes a long way. Though just having the browser warn you when your "news" site was registered last week would also help a lot...

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#32

Post by sfblah » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:36 PM UTC

mastre_ wrote: post #19

sfblah wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kids are being taught a lot of critical race theory concepts in their middle school which, to put it charitably, don't have a whole lot of objective data behind them. That said, it's probably reasonable for schools to try to propagate some set of standard ideologies which parents can then modulate by offering their own opinions. The place this probably doesn't work so well is situations where parents are either ab…

> My kids are being taught a lot of critical race theory concepts in their middle school which, to put it charitably, don't have a whole lot of objective data behind them. Can you give examples of the concepts you mention your kids are being taught in their middle school?

I'm concerned about saying something political that triggers a flood of downvotes, so I'd rather be pretty vague here. One example is their primary US history textbook is kids version of Howard Zinn's People's History of the US.

I have no problem with Zinn's book in general, but I do think it's best read in the context of knowing the "official" version of history. I normally view his book as a useful critique and extension of a classic history text.

To modulate the Zinn book, I simply review with my kids the relevant Wikipedia entries to ensure they have more context. This works great in my family. My concern would be the outcome in a family without engaged parents or radicalized parents, as I mentioned above.

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#33

Post by sfblah » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

tastyfreeze wrote: post #26

sfblah wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kids are being taught a lot of critical race theory concepts in their middle school which, to put it charitably, don't have a whole lot of objective data behind them. That said, it's probably reasonable for schools to try to propagate some set of standard ideologies which parents can then modulate by offering their own opinions. The place this probably doesn't work so well is situations where parents are either ab…

I am sorry that your kids are being indoctrinated with CRT. I will pull my kids from public school before they are "taught" CRT. The goal of a school should be to teach how to think for yourself and provide tools to solve problems. Telling children what they are supposed to think has no place in school.

Please read the rest of my comments on this thread. I don't think you should pull your kids out of school. Simply sit with them and help modulate the information. Learning to operate in the context of CRT is simply part of how their lives will be, assuming they live in / remain in the US.

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#34

Post by creaghpatr » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

Syonyk wrote: post #31

legerdemain wrote: post #9

What you call "bad information" I call "a difference of opinion." And I call your attempts to institute mass re-education in "digital literacy" to "combat" this "bad information" suppression of free thought and oppression of contrarian and non-mainstream voices.

It depends heavily on what you're calling "bad information." There are certainly cases where there's a difference of opinion - different interpretations of some external reality. But there is also "bad information" in the form of "literally made up, entirely, with no basis in reality." There exist clickfarms that do literally this - make up fictions for some "legitimate sounding news site" for nothing beyond the ad r…

World Weekly News still available at your local grocery store checkout as far as I know. That was how I learned what "fake news" was as a kid, the fictional headline you mentioned is totally game for that magazine. In fact most of their covers were some blend of politics, sex, and aliens.

But I'm sure some people believe it or whatever. Doesn't make it anymore credible now that it's on the internet.

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#35

Post by andrepd » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

tastyfreeze wrote: post #26

sfblah wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kids are being taught a lot of critical race theory concepts in their middle school which, to put it charitably, don't have a whole lot of objective data behind them. That said, it's probably reasonable for schools to try to propagate some set of standard ideologies which parents can then modulate by offering their own opinions. The place this probably doesn't work so well is situations where parents are either ab…

I am sorry that your kids are being indoctrinated with CRT. I will pull my kids from public school before they are "taught" CRT. The goal of a school should be to teach how to think for yourself and provide tools to solve problems. Telling children what they are supposed to think has no place in school.

> Telling children what they are supposed to think has no place in school.

Funny I thought that was all that school was supposed to do.

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#36

Post by tastyfreeze » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

sfblah wrote: post #33

tastyfreeze wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry that your kids are being indoctrinated with CRT. I will pull my kids from public school before they are "taught" CRT. The goal of a school should be to teach how to think for yourself and provide tools to solve problems. Telling children what they are supposed to think has no place in school.

Please read the rest of my comments on this thread. I don't think you should pull your kids out of school. Simply sit with them and help modulate the information. Learning to operate in the context of CRT is simply part of how their lives will be, assuming they live in / remain in the US.

I did read your comments. And we do provide a wide array of view points. We are currently home schooling because of COVID. However, I will not reward a school district with government funding attached to my children if they are going to be a mouthpiece for political indoctrination. There is danger in allowing CRT to persist in schools. You are able to modulate the ideas for your children. But, the concern, as you have expressed, is that not all parents can do the same or have already drank the kool-aid. The majority of children being taught CRT are not going to be offered modulating ideas. I fear that 20 years down the road as these kids come into power we are in for a new flavor of racist policies driven by the divisive ideas of CRT.

I do agree that the best counter for bad ideas is talking about better ideas and comparing them. Which, to the point of the article, is the crux of critical thinking skills.

I'm not saying that my trek through public school was free of political indoctrination. DARE drug education was pervasive. There is a big difference between "drugs are bad mkay..." and "you're white so you are inherently racist".

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#37

Post by black6 » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #35

tastyfreeze wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry that your kids are being indoctrinated with CRT. I will pull my kids from public school before they are "taught" CRT. The goal of a school should be to teach how to think for yourself and provide tools to solve problems. Telling children what they are supposed to think has no place in school.

> Telling children what they are supposed to think has no place in school. Funny I thought that was all that school was supposed to do.

Schools should teach children how to learn, then all else will fall in line.

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#38

Post by vimy » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

mastre_ wrote: post #19

sfblah wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kids are being taught a lot of critical race theory concepts in their middle school which, to put it charitably, don't have a whole lot of objective data behind them. That said, it's probably reasonable for schools to try to propagate some set of standard ideologies which parents can then modulate by offering their own opinions. The place this probably doesn't work so well is situations where parents are either ab…

> My kids are being taught a lot of critical race theory concepts in their middle school which, to put it charitably, don't have a whole lot of objective data behind them. Can you give examples of the concepts you mention your kids are being taught in their middle school?

Probably something like this: https://christopherrufo.com/woke-elementary/

A lot of examples on that site.

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#39

Post by Gunax » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

tastyfreeze wrote: post #26

sfblah wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kids are being taught a lot of critical race theory concepts in their middle school which, to put it charitably, don't have a whole lot of objective data behind them. That said, it's probably reasonable for schools to try to propagate some set of standard ideologies which parents can then modulate by offering their own opinions. The place this probably doesn't work so well is situations where parents are either ab…

I am sorry that your kids are being indoctrinated with CRT. I will pull my kids from public school before they are "taught" CRT. The goal of a school should be to teach how to think for yourself and provide tools to solve problems. Telling children what they are supposed to think has no place in school.

There's always a degree of indictrination, it's just about where one draws the line.

I was taught racism is bad, and in the literal sense that is an opinion, its just one that our society takes for granted now.

Re: As Bad Information Spreads, Florida Schools Seek to Teach 'Digital Literacy'

#40

Post by gonehome » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

creaghpatr wrote: post #34

Syonyk wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends heavily on what you're calling "bad information." There are certainly cases where there's a difference of opinion - different interpretations of some external reality. But there is also "bad information" in the form of "literally made up, entirely, with no basis in reality." There exist clickfarms that do literally this - make up fictions for some "legitimate sounding news site" for nothing beyond the ad r…

World Weekly News still available at your local grocery store checkout as far as I know. That was how I learned what "fake news" was as a kid, the fictional headline you mentioned is totally game for that magazine. In fact most of their covers were some blend of politics, sex, and aliens. But I'm sure some people believe it or whatever. Doesn't make it anymore credible now that it's on the internet.

The internet has two things World Weekly News doesn't though - scale, and very sophisticated targeting.

A lot of the misinformation in 2016 came from scammers in (I think) Madagascar driving traffic to adfarm blogs with nonsense via FB. They leveraged FB's engagement algorithms to spread viral misinformation to drive traffic. They tried lies targeting the left and the right, but the lies targeting the right spread more easily so they focused attention there.

FB's engagement algorithms leverage confirmation bias in an attempt to spread things the most. I don't think they set out to do this necessarily, but if you measure viral spread and optimize for it - this is what you get.

With political ads, focused targeting at scale is a new type of very effective manipulation that's had a large amount of intellectual capital poured into it. I think it's worth special consideration when considering its effect/risk.

Steven Levy's book was a great (and fair) read on this: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/551043/facebook-by-...