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Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

#31

Post by UncleOxidant »

chaimanmeow wrote: post #28

I would like to see a comparison between the top 10% vegan and omnivores. Most vegans are clueless when it comes to making up deficiencies in typical vegan diets. Glycine is one of the relevant aminos that is very suboptimal or even scarce in vegetarian and vegan diets. It is also going to be one of the important (and likely most common) limiting factors in tissue repair. Proline is also needed for collagen productio…

I was completely vegan for a couple of years. I went that way to avoid gallbladder surgery - it worked, I had no gallbladder pain on a vegan diet. I Supplemented with B12 and Vitamin D as those are typically low to non-existent in the vegan diet.

But I started to have problems with my teeth chipping - hadn't had that before. I did some calculations and realized that there was no way I was getting anywhere close to the RDA for calcium. So I started supplementing some calcium.

After some gut problems I came to the conclusion that beans weren't working for me. I needed to quit eating legumes for a while which is highly problematic on a vegan diet as they're the major source of protein.

Now I eat a tin of sardines twice/week (and other fish occasionally) which means that technically I'm not vegan any longer. At least the addition of fish did not cause any gallbladder problems.

Re: Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

#32

Post by nomadiccoder »

chaimanmeow wrote: post #28

I would like to see a comparison between the top 10% vegan and omnivores. Most vegans are clueless when it comes to making up deficiencies in typical vegan diets. Glycine is one of the relevant aminos that is very suboptimal or even scarce in vegetarian and vegan diets. It is also going to be one of the important (and likely most common) limiting factors in tissue repair. Proline is also needed for collagen productio…

> Most vegans are clueless when it comes to making up deficiencies in typical vegan diets

The same goes for non-vegans.

Re: Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

#33

Post by centimeter »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #25
centimeter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attributing colon cancer to meat is, it turns out, complete bullshit, just like most other nonsense anti-meat fear-mongering (uric acid, cholesterol, etc.).

I'm not familiar with the data either way, so am reading to learn; why do you say it's bullshit?

Every time I get concerned about one of these things and look it up, it turns out to have been false.

Re: Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

#34

Post by 1996 »

walshemj wrote: post #16
1996 wrote: post #5

Related: the surgical scars of fasting mouse heal better (various publications report the same results) The same seems to apply in human, with various individual anecdotal report: https://www.quora.com/Did-long-term-water-fasting-improve-an...

I was told that loading up on carbs helped with recovery and I have a load of stuff downstairs in case i get called in.

I notice the downvotes to my post, but what you was told is demonstrably wrong.

As for how/why it works:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7069085/

"Fasting before or after wound injury accelerates wound healing through the activation of pro-angiogenic SMOC1 and SCG2"

There are various other publications on autophagy (removing old stem cells and making new ones)

For those who are going to say "in mice", the effects of true (water only) fasting has been replicated in humans, in well done trials, in even harsher conditions than surgery: chemotherapy.

Fasting improves various things such as the severity of symptoms during chemo and the efficiency of the treatment:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5921787/

"Short term fasting during chemotherapy is well tolerated and appears to improve quality of life and fatigue during chemotherapy"

It may be counter intuitive, but there's a large body of evidence that fasting promotes healing (check the various reference of this 2018 trial: "Fasting cycles retard growth of tumors and sensitize a range of cancer cell types to chemotherapy" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22323820/ etc

Re: Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

#35

Post by _dax6 »

asoneth wrote: post #29
hirundo wrote: post #2

> This study suggests that a vegan diet may negatively influence the outcome of surgical scars. This is unusually damning to veganism-as-it-is-practiced if not to veganism itself. It would be interesting to see these results across a wide range of diets.

I'm not sure any of the vegans I know would give up veganism in order to minimize their scars any more than the meat-eaters I know would give up meat based on studies that show it can be mildly unhealthy.

Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but the outcome of this study seems to suggest there may be other healing-related issues attached to veganism.

Re: Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

#37

Post by subungual »

gamblor956 wrote: post #15

Not a surprise. Collagen is important for healing skin wounds, and vegans get none from their diet. (Collagen is just a protein, so it can be generated by the body, but it's easier for the body to simply take collagen from dietary sources.)

Do you have a source for this? As far as I know, there is no way for the body to uptake and employ collagen directly. It needs to be broken down into smaller peptides, absorbed, and rebuilt, just like any other protein.

Re: Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

#38

Post by tpoacher »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #31
chaimanmeow wrote: post #28

I would like to see a comparison between the top 10% vegan and omnivores. Most vegans are clueless when it comes to making up deficiencies in typical vegan diets. Glycine is one of the relevant aminos that is very suboptimal or even scarce in vegetarian and vegan diets. It is also going to be one of the important (and likely most common) limiting factors in tissue repair. Proline is also needed for collagen productio…

I was completely vegan for a couple of years. I went that way to avoid gallbladder surgery - it worked, I had no gallbladder pain on a vegan diet. I Supplemented with B12 and Vitamin D as those are typically low to non-existent in the vegan diet. But I started to have problems with my teeth chipping - hadn't had that before. I did some calculations and realized that there was no way I was getting anywhere close to th…

I can't remember the exact reference here, but I remember a research paper which showed that veganism is associated with an increased risk of cholecystitis.

This is despite the fact that a typical vegan diet is low in fat (which is the typical reason a vegan diet is promoted for gallbladder control). In fact, if I remember correctly, the 'lack' of fat was also the main risk; in that the occasional fact prompted a more violent reaction, thus increasing the risk for an impaction.

I can try and find the article for you if you're interested, though I remember last time I tried to find it it was no easy task trying to sift through the myriad of google results containing vegan blogs recommending vegan diets for cholecystitis... But in any case, if you're going vegan for fear of cholecystitis, be aware it may actually have the reverse outcome!

Re: Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

#39

Post by walshemj »

1996 wrote: post #34
walshemj wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was told that loading up on carbs helped with recovery and I have a load of stuff downstairs in case i get called in.

I notice the downvotes to my post, but what you was told is demonstrably wrong. As for how/why it works: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7069085/ "Fasting before or after wound injury accelerates wound healing through the activation of pro-angiogenic SMOC1 and SCG2" There are various other publications on autophagy (removing old stem cells and making new ones) For those who are going to say "in mice", th…

That's not what the senior colorectal doctor at the royal free told me last year.

Re: Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore Patients

#40

Post by jxramos »

petertodd wrote: post #24
centimeter wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of several motte-and-bailey tactics used by vegans is going from “Veganism is healthy” To “Veganism can be healthy if you exercise an impressive amount of restraint, discipline, and judgement in your vegan diet”

_If_ you can get enough exercise, you can be healthy on pretty much any omnivore diet because it's so hard to not get enough nutrition, and extra calories don't matter if you burn them off. I personally lost lots of weight when I was cycling regularly to work and school (10km and 50km round trip respectively), as well as caving and climbing on weekends. Almost everything I ate was fast food, because I had hardly any…

I remember hearing the question asked someplace about whether any professional athletes are vegans, especially for the intense sports that require a lot of muscle rebuilding and maybe even contact sport healing and what not. That might illuminate things a bit.
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