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“User engagement” is code for “addiction”

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Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#31

Post by 8fGTBjZxBcHq »

fartcannon wrote: post #20
teh_infallible wrote: post #16

The word “addiction” is overused in my opinion. Bad habits are not addictions. An addiction is something which actively harms you, but you can’t stop doing it. Yes, you can argue social media is harmful, but it generally does not cause people to lose their jobs or spend all their money.

I'm addicted to caffeine. It's relatively harmless, might even help me work better. No one ever lost their job or spent all their money on caffeine. But it's unquestionably an addiction.

If we're going into like very technical definitions I believe what you're talking about is physical dependence. In a mental health context persisting use even after multiple serious negative consequences is part of the definition of addiction.

Though even there I think they are moving to phrases like "drug use disorder" partly because of usage mismatches like this.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#32

Post by bosswipe »

HNfriend234 wrote: post #26

Social media is a perfect example of where this is used. I know countless people that are literally addicted to it. They want to see every new update continuously and the social media apps are designed to do this through notifications. I saw this clear as day when I was at jury duty. We were waiting for the court to get back into session. There was a girl sitting next to me on the bench and I noticed about every 5 mi…

> Then look at all the mental health problems young people are having these days

Is there any evidence that mental health is worse than for previous generations?

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#33

Post by mumblemumble »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

> The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ourselves.

If it's done well, it should have the opposite effect. Describing all the ways that companies are trying to get you addicted will help inoculate people against their tricks. In order to psychologically defend yourself, you first need to understand exactly what you're defending yourself against.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#34

Post by AdmiralGinge »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

>We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions, and that they can take steps to reduce their social media usage to healthy levels. I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see.

I couldn't agree more, and to add to that I think it's usually a foolish approach to treat people as hapless automatons without any agency if you're trying to convince them that your point is worth listening to. If you look at two of the worst political failures in the UK recently (the Remain campaign for the Brexit referendum in 2016 and Labour's election campaign in 2019), I think what they have in common is that they essentially told people "you're a downtrodden proletariat buffeted about by forces well outside your control, but we can make things better for you" which is such a foolish approach in my opinion. Regardless of whether they actually do or not, the average person likes to think they're in control of their own destiny so blaming everything on Facebook being manipulative bastards will never work if your aim is to change the public's relationship with social media.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#35

Post by Nextgrid »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

It's less about screen-time or self-control and more about toxic, malicious software used for communication.

A lot of the calls-to-action used to generate "engagement" are the same calls to action used for legitimate communications, and the only way to tell is to "engage" with the product.

There's nothing wrong with people opening their social media app if they receive a real message from a friend. The problem is when the platform is incentivized to "manufacture" messages even when there aren't any.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#36

Post by reaperducer »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see

I have my home router configured to not allow any social media-capable devices to connect on Sundays.

After a few weeks, the FOMO cycle is broken and you realize that there's more to life than scrolling.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#37

Post by polynomial »

HNfriend234 wrote: post #26

Social media is a perfect example of where this is used. I know countless people that are literally addicted to it. They want to see every new update continuously and the social media apps are designed to do this through notifications. I saw this clear as day when I was at jury duty. We were waiting for the court to get back into session. There was a girl sitting next to me on the bench and I noticed about every 5 mi…

> Social media is the cigarette of our generation.

Except with cigarettes we could point to the very real physical harms of lung cancer, emphysema, etc.

With social media we just have vaguely sinister warnings about addiction and mental health issues, which can seem paltry in comparison.

The former was obviously a health problem that was deranging people's bodies, whereas the later is seen largely as a social, not a medical, problem.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#38

Post by reaperducer »

bosswipe wrote: post #32
HNfriend234 wrote: post #26

Social media is a perfect example of where this is used. I know countless people that are literally addicted to it. They want to see every new update continuously and the social media apps are designed to do this through notifications. I saw this clear as day when I was at jury duty. We were waiting for the court to get back into session. There was a girl sitting next to me on the bench and I noticed about every 5 mi…

> Then look at all the mental health problems young people are having these days Is there any evidence that mental health is worse than for previous generations?

Is there any evidence that mental health is worse than for previous generations?

I don't think so. But people do seem more fragile these days.

Still, even if it isn't worse, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do something about it.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#39

Post by polynomial »

fartcannon wrote: post #20
teh_infallible wrote: post #16

The word “addiction” is overused in my opinion. Bad habits are not addictions. An addiction is something which actively harms you, but you can’t stop doing it. Yes, you can argue social media is harmful, but it generally does not cause people to lose their jobs or spend all their money.

I'm addicted to caffeine. It's relatively harmless, might even help me work better. No one ever lost their job or spent all their money on caffeine. But it's unquestionably an addiction.

Quite a few would lose their jobs if NOT for caffeine, I'd wager.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#40

Post by Shared404 »

HNfriend234 wrote: post #26

Social media is a perfect example of where this is used. I know countless people that are literally addicted to it. They want to see every new update continuously and the social media apps are designed to do this through notifications. I saw this clear as day when I was at jury duty. We were waiting for the court to get back into session. There was a girl sitting next to me on the bench and I noticed about every 5 mi…

> Then look at all the mental health problems young people are having these days - bullying, depression, suicide etc. and I would say a big part of that is influenced by social media.

Guess who has suffered through most of those, without any kind of social media, outside of HN :)

Edit: And suffered before getting on HN. Seems relevant to the situation.

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