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Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

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Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#31

Post by ben7799 »

I'm a cyclist.. while I can agree that this study could be flawed there's also something else.

Bicycles are highly efficient themselves.. perhaps so efficient that they hide too many cues that riders would use to become more efficient.

And while the study might be flawed by using trainers and such if you try to study stuff in the real world with cyclists there's probably too much noise in the signals with all the strange stuff that goes on with cycling, like weather, traffic, group riding, etc..

The Lance Armstrong results showing him becoming more efficient in disagreement with the newer study could have been highly flawed as well if he was "protected" more by his team even in training as his career advanced, which we know he was. To say nothing of his ever changing cocktail of PEDs.

I do think any competitive rider will become more efficient after a year of coached riding with the benefit of a power meter & electronic tracking. Every pro today has that of course.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#32

Post by DenisM »

jsperson wrote: post #22
exabrial wrote: post #4

> Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists I could see this being true for road bikers... but any XCO, CXO, or Enduro rider depends heavily on training for: * Finding efficient body position for climbing * Weight shifting/wheel unloading while crossing features * Discovery efficiency gains in pedal cadence for terrain, slope, camber I did a cross country race last July. I started mountain biking in Mar…

A few years ago I took an XC clinic from a pro woman mountain biker. A big focus was on descending. On one particular hill she got down first - MINUTES ahead of me (the first student). This was on a descent where there was basically no pedaling. She did this to us all day. During that season I won a local mens cat 2 race series. I was no slouch, but she destroyed us. All technique.

Did you hear about the guy who won a downhill race after losing his chain out of the gate?

Mountain biking is a lot closer to mountain skiing than it is to race biking - very little locomotion, a whole lot of body balancing.

https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a20022483/video-aaron-gwin-...

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#33

Post by putnambr »

dkarl wrote: post #29
theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

It's interesting because there is a widespread belief (questioned by many, but also still held by many) that pedal stroke at a fixed cadence can be made more efficient by directing the force in more of a circle instead of just pushing down on each side as a beginner does. As you direct the force in a more circular manner, you are supposed to get more efficient. Being clipped in is supposed to allow you to complete th…

Like you said there are questions of efficiency, but hardly any questions of effectiveness. By clipping in and being able to muscle around the full rotation might burn more calories, but it does allow you to push out more watts. Try climbing a 10%+ incline clipped in vs flats. You might be more tired at the top of the hill clipped in, but with flats you'll likely spin out and be forced to hike your bike. Regarding this study, I don't think form in cycling can be trained on the typical trainer. You'd need a rocker plate and something raises/lowers your fork to perform any of the movement that outdoor riding requires.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#34

Post by DenisM »

exabrial wrote: post #4

> Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists I could see this being true for road bikers... but any XCO, CXO, or Enduro rider depends heavily on training for: * Finding efficient body position for climbing * Weight shifting/wheel unloading while crossing features * Discovery efficiency gains in pedal cadence for terrain, slope, camber I did a cross country race last July. I started mountain biking in Mar…

How did you train for all that?

I feel like I waste a lot of energy on climbs, but I can't quite figure out why. Could use some help.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#35

Post by nradov »

dkarl wrote: post #29
theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

It's interesting because there is a widespread belief (questioned by many, but also still held by many) that pedal stroke at a fixed cadence can be made more efficient by directing the force in more of a circle instead of just pushing down on each side as a beginner does. As you direct the force in a more circular manner, you are supposed to get more efficient. Being clipped in is supposed to allow you to complete th…

What sort of evidence is needed? Modern power meters can show the complete power phase and torque effectiveness on pedaling strokes. Regardless of efficiency, modern clipless pedals allow for delivering higher maximum power without your feet slipping off.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#36

Post by medium_burrito »

jsperson wrote: post #22
exabrial wrote: post #4

> Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists I could see this being true for road bikers... but any XCO, CXO, or Enduro rider depends heavily on training for: * Finding efficient body position for climbing * Weight shifting/wheel unloading while crossing features * Discovery efficiency gains in pedal cadence for terrain, slope, camber I did a cross country race last July. I started mountain biking in Mar…

A few years ago I took an XC clinic from a pro woman mountain biker. A big focus was on descending. On one particular hill she got down first - MINUTES ahead of me (the first student). This was on a descent where there was basically no pedaling. She did this to us all day. During that season I won a local mens cat 2 race series. I was no slouch, but she destroyed us. All technique.

For road biking as well- though a lot of it is many people are afraid of a 23mm contact patch being the only thing between them and going off a cliff in the Alps!

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#37

Post by crispyambulance »

johnchase wrote: post #26
ak217 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that cyclists get more efficient over time on their bike and on the kind of course they are familiar with. In this study, they didn't even have clip-in pedals: "Because not all of the runners were familiar with cycling shoes, all participants cycled in their own running shoes on flat pedals without toe clips or straps." On a constant-speed training bike without clip-in pedals, a road cyclist wi…

Although I use clipless pedals on both my road and mountain bikes, most of the research I've seen recently suggests that clipless do not provide any efficiency gain. This video provides links to numerous peer reviewed articles on the topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE . Of course I'm sure there is research that would suggest otherwise, and I would be interested in seeing counter arguments.

There's seems to be questioning on powering the upstroke, but that has never been "the reason" for foot retention systems. Except for one specific type of cycling-- track cycling, where upstroke IS USED in high acceleration starts like in Match Sprint or short time trials. There are track versions of clipless systems which require a lot more force and twist to get out of.

The main reason for clipless, as I understand it, is for safety and maintaining one's foot on the pedal. When you're pedaling, if you are apply any down-force whatsoever on the upstroke, you're wasting power. So, a trained cyclist will always have their foot practically floating on the upstroke and their foot will drift position as they pedal unless something is keeping it in place.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#38

Post by liminal »

justinator wrote: post #23
nightski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure biking at a fixed cadence outside would have a poor result as well in flat terrain. At the end of the day I've seen massive improvements in my cycling ability when regularly doing a HIIT bike routine (such as sufferfest for example) on a trainer such as the wahoo kickr.

Honestly, the best performance I ever had in my life was on a 50km race a few months after finishing a 2700 mile MTB race. Safe to say the 2700 had a lot of long, slow miles. That massive base (and recovery afterwards) allowed me to win the 50km race, by 10 minutes, against Cat 1+2 and one pro (who got second). Also everyone else had more than one gears on their bikes.

The Great Divide?

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#39

Post by nradov »

DenisM wrote: post #34
exabrial wrote: post #4

> Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists I could see this being true for road bikers... but any XCO, CXO, or Enduro rider depends heavily on training for: * Finding efficient body position for climbing * Weight shifting/wheel unloading while crossing features * Discovery efficiency gains in pedal cadence for terrain, slope, camber I did a cross country race last July. I started mountain biking in Mar…

How did you train for all that? I feel like I waste a lot of energy on climbs, but I can't quite figure out why. Could use some help.

Why do you think you waste a lot of energy on climbs? For most riders, climbing speed is based on your power to weight ratio. So the easiest way to waste less energy is simply to reduce body fat.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#40

Post by Tarrosion »

dkarl wrote: post #29
theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

It's interesting because there is a widespread belief (questioned by many, but also still held by many) that pedal stroke at a fixed cadence can be made more efficient by directing the force in more of a circle instead of just pushing down on each side as a beginner does. As you direct the force in a more circular manner, you are supposed to get more efficient. Being clipped in is supposed to allow you to complete th…

Ah I've often wondered about this when riding! I wear grippy shoes on spiky pedals, but not clipped in (or using a poorly-named clipless system).

Alternating left-right pushes feels very different than trying to maintain a continuous circular motion with quasi-equal force throughout. But unscientifically I can't notice any difference.

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