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Toshiba Unveils First FC-MAMR HDD: 18 TB, Helium Filled

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Re: Toshiba Unveils First FC-MAMR HDD: 18 TB, Helium Filled

#31

Post by FooBarWidget »

sandworm101 wrote: post #5
yummypaint wrote: post #3

This seems like a terrible use of helium from a sustainability perspective. There are some things that helium is truly essential for, like low temperature cryogenics and neutron detection. Our supply is finite and largely tied to natural gas reserves. When helium leaks out it floats into space and is gone forever. Why does the atmosphere in the drive absolutely have to be helium? Why not any other mix of inert gases…

The amount used in these drives is minuscule, akin to a single party balloon. Given these drives are to be used for many years at a time, I'll go after them after I manage to stop all the birthday balloons.

A party balloon full of helium is a minuscule amount?

Re: Toshiba Unveils First FC-MAMR HDD: 18 TB, Helium Filled

#33

Post by pengaru »

yummypaint wrote: post #3

This seems like a terrible use of helium from a sustainability perspective. There are some things that helium is truly essential for, like low temperature cryogenics and neutron detection. Our supply is finite and largely tied to natural gas reserves. When helium leaks out it floats into space and is gone forever. Why does the atmosphere in the drive absolutely have to be helium? Why not any other mix of inert gases…

> Not trying to go full tinfoil hat here, but filling equipment with helium in this way seems like an effective way to cap drive life by time elapsed rather than amount of actual use.

Recognizing planned obsolescence is not tinfoil hat territory. It's a rational and predictable commercial practice equivalent to rent-seeking, you're not crazy.

Re: Toshiba Unveils First FC-MAMR HDD: 18 TB, Helium Filled

#34

Post by sandworm101 »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #31
sandworm101 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount used in these drives is minuscule, akin to a single party balloon. Given these drives are to be used for many years at a time, I'll go after them after I manage to stop all the birthday balloons.

A party balloon full of helium is a minuscule amount?

Note this is liquid helium in one operational MRI machine:

"Let’s say you have an MRI scanner with the OR76 magnet with the full capacity of 1800 litres of helium. Your system consumes approximately 4% of its helium capacity per month, that sums up to 48% per year (4%12 = 48%). That means that 864 litres are consumed per year (1800 litres 48% = 864 litres)."

https://lbnmedical.com/liquid-helium-in-mri-machine/

That is liquid, so for the gas we can multiply 864 by about 1000. So this MRI machine is using 86,000 liters of helium gas per year. That is what, 40,000 party balloons? Say each machine does 1000 scans per year, that is a good-sized cluster of party balloons for every scan. So yes, a single party balloon pales in comparison to the amount of helium being used for MRI scans.

(There are near-zero helium MRI machines, but there are also plenty of older machines in use out there.)

Re: Toshiba Unveils First FC-MAMR HDD: 18 TB, Helium Filled

#35

Post by xadhominemx »

yummypaint wrote: post #3

This seems like a terrible use of helium from a sustainability perspective. There are some things that helium is truly essential for, like low temperature cryogenics and neutron detection. Our supply is finite and largely tied to natural gas reserves. When helium leaks out it floats into space and is gone forever. Why does the atmosphere in the drive absolutely have to be helium? Why not any other mix of inert gases…

Wow you should definitely reach out to the thousands of career hard disk engineers to inform them of your idea using different inert gases. They probably haven’t considered that one.

Re: Toshiba Unveils First FC-MAMR HDD: 18 TB, Helium Filled

#36

Post by m4rtink »

sandworm101 wrote: post #34
FooBarWidget wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A party balloon full of helium is a minuscule amount?

Note this is liquid helium in one operational MRI machine: "Let’s say you have an MRI scanner with the OR76 magnet with the full capacity of 1800 litres of helium. Your system consumes approximately 4% of its helium capacity per month, that sums up to 48% per year (4% 12 = 48%). That means that 864 litres are consumed per year (1800 litres 48% = 864 litres)." https://lbnmedical.com/liquid-helium-in-mri-machine/ That…

Many modern liquid rocket engine powered space launchers also use quite a lot of helium for tank pressurisation in flight. Helium being inert with very low melting point is ideal for this use case, especially with cryogenic propelants.

With the most modern generation of reusable space launchers such as SpaceX starship an alternative solution is being worked on, possible thanks to both fuel (methane) and oxidizer (oxygen) they use being cryogenic.

Instead of pressurizing with helium they heat up a bit of the cryogenic liquids using the rocket engine heat, let it expand into gas and use it to pressurize the tanks, no helium required!

One of the reasons is that for fully reusable space launchers the main cost is the propelant and helium in the amounts needed would be a big part of that!

Re: Toshiba Unveils First FC-MAMR HDD: 18 TB, Helium Filled

#38

Post by wtallis »

1996 wrote: post #25

Is MAMR energy assist similar to SMR - requiring nearby information to be rewritten?

It shouldn't require re-writing adjacent tracks or sectors. Heating up a portion of the platter makes it easier to change the bits, but the magnetic field doing the actual writing is still pretty narrow. If MAMR/HAMR has any significant effect on nearby data, I'd guess it would be similar to DRAM rowhammer: repeated writes (and thermal cycles) to one location may cause nearby locations to have increased error rates, but that's not the same as SMR directly clobbering adjacent tracks.

Re: Toshiba Unveils First FC-MAMR HDD: 18 TB, Helium Filled

#39

Post by gibspaulding »

sandworm101 wrote: post #34
FooBarWidget wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A party balloon full of helium is a minuscule amount?

Note this is liquid helium in one operational MRI machine: "Let’s say you have an MRI scanner with the OR76 magnet with the full capacity of 1800 litres of helium. Your system consumes approximately 4% of its helium capacity per month, that sums up to 48% per year (4% 12 = 48%). That means that 864 litres are consumed per year (1800 litres 48% = 864 litres)." https://lbnmedical.com/liquid-helium-in-mri-machine/ That…

> "Let’s say you have an MRI scanner with the OR76 magnet with the full capacity of 1800 litres of helium. Your system consumes approximately 4% of its helium capacity per month, that sums up to 48% per year (4%12 = 48%). That means that 864 litres are consumed per year (1800 litres 48% = 864 litres)."

I know this is napkin math so it doesn't really matter, but a 4% loss times 12 months would be 1-(.96^12) = 39%. Unless of course they're topping up the helium every month.

Re: Toshiba Unveils First FC-MAMR HDD: 18 TB, Helium Filled

#40

Post by sandworm101 »

gibspaulding wrote: post #39
sandworm101 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note this is liquid helium in one operational MRI machine: "Let’s say you have an MRI scanner with the OR76 magnet with the full capacity of 1800 litres of helium. Your system consumes approximately 4% of its helium capacity per month, that sums up to 48% per year (4% 12 = 48%). That means that 864 litres are consumed per year (1800 litres 48% = 864 litres)." https://lbnmedical.com/liquid-helium-in-mri-machine/ That…

> "Let’s say you have an MRI scanner with the OR76 magnet with the full capacity of 1800 litres of helium. Your system consumes approximately 4% of its helium capacity per month, that sums up to 48% per year (4%12 = 48%). That means that 864 litres are consumed per year (1800 litres 48% = 864 litres)." I know this is napkin math so it doesn't really matter, but a 4% loss times 12 months would be 1-(.96^12) = 39%. Unl…

I'm not sure that the percentage matters in cooling. This stuff is cooling working parts (magnets). Boiling is therefore related to the amount of heat needing to be absorbed rather than the amount of helium in the tank. A half-empty machine would probably need to boil off just as much helium per time/use/work cycle as a full one.

The other error I now realize is that these HDDs probably have much less helium than any party balloon. They appear to be below atmospheric pressure and are so small that they are probably less than a tenth of a liter each. So one MRI scan is probably the equivalent of hundreds of these HDDs.

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