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OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

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Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#31

Post by etaioinshrdlu »

messe wrote: post #17

Fantastic. OpenBSD on an M1 Mac Mini would be a great home server. As for desktop, I love cwm on my thinkpads, but macbook touchpads have won me over. That said, if arcan gets to a usable state on OpenBSD, I wouldn't mind sinking a few weekends (and/or crates of beer) into helping with improving touchpad/gesture support. X11 is just too daunting to have me bothered.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but isn't almost anything a decent home server nowadays? As long as your'e OK with the performance, size, cost, storage, there are just myriad options available. Just about any PC or mac would do. Finally, we all have our own preferences, but I'm not sure why one would really want to use OpenBSD for a home server. There's less driver support or application support than just about any other choice. It sounds like an ideal choice if you like to spend countless hours fiddling with things.

I'm really curious what you see to like in this setup.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#32

Post by Shared404 »

mhh__ wrote: post #28
ogre_codes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted) stack but utterly refuse to document anything beyond the absolute basics Computers are tools to get a job done. I buy a computer so I can write software on it. While I am happy that we can get Linux and OpenBSD on a Mac, it's not a deal breaker. Regardless of…

> If they did something that got in the way of building the software I need to build? Then I'd punch out in a heartbeat. Sadly I don't do it for a living, but the stuff I like to write is all tuned for performance, they don't tell me anything about the CPU, so even if I was in the market for one I still wouldn't buy one as I couldn't have any fun using it. And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone…

I agree with most of what you say, but this:

> And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard

Is just plainly inaccurate. The phone has nowhere near supplanted the desktop in multiple scenarios. Office work and programming [0] both come to mind.

[0] And this was the specific use-case brought up by the parent. Pretty obvious a phone is not a competitor for that.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#34

Post by rudedogg »

ogre_codes wrote: post #24
TheRealSteel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't an assumption or knee-jerk reaction. Apple went on record as saying other operating systems wouldn't boot on Apple Silicon. Admittedly there's enough vagueness that they didn't 100% rule it out completely, but I think it was a fair interpretation of what they said at the time. Craig Federighi said this when talking to John Gruber: "We're not direct booting an alternate operating system, it's... purely vir…

You are quoting a reddit comment which mis-interpreted what Federighi said. They didn't say they would prevent alternative operating systems from booting, only that they aren't doing it . As opposed to the fact that they are in fact helping get Linux running in the hypervisor and actually demoed Linux running in a VM before it was public. Apple documented how people could boot alternative operating systems.

They're quoting Craig Federighi: https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3794

I don't get the downvotes of the parent post, the interpretation is completely reasonable. The point is that Apple was very clear that they are only supporting macOS on their hardware.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#35

Post by endgame »

ogre_codes wrote: post #25
mhh__ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now I’m gonna see if there’s an option to throw money at this. Even if I were God I wouldn't stop anyone doing it, but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted) stack but utterly refuse to document anything beyond the absolute basics - this is the world's largest tech company, from which I conclude that t…

> but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted) stack but utterly refuse to document anything beyond the absolute basics Computers are tools to get a job done. I buy a computer so I can write software on it. While I am happy that we can get Linux and OpenBSD on a Mac, it's not a deal breaker. Regardless of…

> I buy a computer so I can write software on it.

And I use Free Software operating systems to ensure that I can continue to do so.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#36

Post by alsetmusic »

endgame wrote: post #35
ogre_codes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted) stack but utterly refuse to document anything beyond the absolute basics Computers are tools to get a job done. I buy a computer so I can write software on it. While I am happy that we can get Linux and OpenBSD on a Mac, it's not a deal breaker. Regardless of…

> I buy a computer so I can write software on it. And I use Free Software operating systems to ensure that I can continue to do so.

>> I buy a computer so I can write software on it.

> And I use Free Software operating systems to ensure that I can continue to do so.

The point of this discussion is your ability to run a free OS on an M1 Mac.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#37

Post by ogre_codes »

rudedogg wrote: post #34
ogre_codes wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are quoting a reddit comment which mis-interpreted what Federighi said. They didn't say they would prevent alternative operating systems from booting, only that they aren't doing it . As opposed to the fact that they are in fact helping get Linux running in the hypervisor and actually demoed Linux running in a VM before it was public. Apple documented how people could boot alternative operating systems.

They're quoting Craig Federighi: https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3794 I don't get the downvotes of the parent post, the interpretation is completely reasonable. The point is that Apple was very clear that they are only supporting macOS on their hardware.

I know who they are quoting. I also re-listened to what he said because at the time I'd made the same assumption.

Apple execs are infamously careful about how they word things. Federighi could have said they won't allow other operating systems, but he didn't because that's not what they did or were planning.

If they didn't intend for this to be possible, they wouldn't have shipped it this way and documented how to do it.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#38

Post by mhh__ »

Shared404 wrote: post #32
mhh__ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they did something that got in the way of building the software I need to build? Then I'd punch out in a heartbeat. Sadly I don't do it for a living, but the stuff I like to write is all tuned for performance, they don't tell me anything about the CPU, so even if I was in the market for one I still wouldn't buy one as I couldn't have any fun using it. And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone…

I agree with most of what you say, but this: > And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard Is just plainly inaccurate. The phone has nowhere near supplanted the desktop in multiple scenarios. Office work and programming [0] both come to mind. [0] And this was the specific use-case brought up by the parent. Pretty obvious a phone is not a compet…

My point was that the phone has supplanted the computer as the sole device for many people i.e. people of my generation will often ask for an app rather than a website

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#39

Post by saagarjha »

mjg59 wrote: post #26
alsetmusic wrote: post #4

So much for the many remarks made on HN claiming that Apple would use the M1 to further exert control over users’ ability to boot an alternative OS. Between this and Asahi Linux, I’d say things are off to a good start. Btw, Asahi has a Patreon page for anyone who wants to contribute. I’m tossing twelve bucks a month and recommend any Mac users with interest in booting alternative OSes support such projects. Now I’m g…

At the point the hardware shipped, it was impossible to boot non-Apple operating systems on M1 systems. Post-release updates added this, but Apple had not publicly committed to doing so before that.

Apple committed to this during WWDC, when they mentioned that they would have an option to dial the boot security back.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#40

Post by saagarjha »

xiphias2 wrote: post #16
mhh__ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now I’m gonna see if there’s an option to throw money at this. Even if I were God I wouldn't stop anyone doing it, but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted) stack but utterly refuse to document anything beyond the absolute basics - this is the world's largest tech company, from which I conclude that t…

Apple needs open source hackers to port all open source software to M1 chips for free before locking them more down. To be honest I just ordered my first MacBook Pro as well, so I guess I’m part of the ,,problem’’

That makes very little sense. What does Apple get out of letting people run Linux and OpenBSD, then preventing it?
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