Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers • Hacker News Board

Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers

#31

Post by skybrian » Sat, Feb 13, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #21

skybrian wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess, but I'm reminded of the promises made for UML, where in the end it just introduced some standard conventions for whiteboard diagrams. Abstract, domain-independent formalisms can make ideas harder to understand than domain-specific, concrete examples. With category theory, I'm not seeing examples of the formalism paying off that would justify the endeavor.

UML did not have a categorical foundation in the way that, e.g. commutative diagrams, tensor networks or proof nets do, though. Categorical foundations help define some implied properties and allowed operations (e.g. "diagram chasing" as a diagrammatic representation of composition) that have no equivalent in ad-hoc modeling notations like UML.

Sure, it's real math, but is that a difference that makes a difference? The real-world applications could still be overly hyped.

Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers

#32

Post by btilly » Sat, Feb 13, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #30

btilly wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit of a white lie but I don't see it being harmful to claim that. It is increasingly becoming true. I do. Category theory is something that appeals to some mathematicians, and not to others. Those who it doesn't appeal to are likely to wind up in fields like combinatorics, functional analysis, numerical analysis, and so on. If you inflict category theory prematurely on the latter group, people who might have…

I consider your example revelatory, as it points to a different source of harm: Preferences. "appeals to some, and not others" - this speaks to the need to normalize the abandonment/minimization of preferences. The harm you describe is self-inflicted limitation due to clinging to preferences. I accidentally abandoned my preferences that lie beyond the meeting of my needs, ie. abandoning preferences for how to meet th…

Not particularly, oh internet stranger. I do not care for your "help" or armchair psychoanalysis.

Your theory is that I have trauma. Here is mine.

Mathematicians are fairly evenly divided between whether they prefer algebra or analysis. Ask any mathematician and they know exactly which side of this divide they stand on. It is a pretty fundamental difference in what interests them, and what they pay attention to.

Enthusiasm for category theory only exists on the algebra side of the divide. I've yet to meet anyone on the analysis side who particularly likes category theory.

My theory is that I just happen to be on the analysis side.

Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers

#33

Post by crawfordcomeaux » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 11:33 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #32

crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider your example revelatory, as it points to a different source of harm: Preferences. "appeals to some, and not others" - this speaks to the need to normalize the abandonment/minimization of preferences. The harm you describe is self-inflicted limitation due to clinging to preferences. I accidentally abandoned my preferences that lie beyond the meeting of my needs, ie. abandoning preferences for how to meet th…

Not particularly, oh internet stranger. I do not care for your "help" or armchair psychoanalysis. Your theory is that I have trauma. Here is mine. Mathematicians are fairly evenly divided between whether they prefer algebra or analysis. Ask any mathematician and they know exactly which side of this divide they stand on. It is a pretty fundamental difference in what interests them, and what they pay attention to. Enth…

I said trauma or arbitrary choices. I also forgot about cultural transmission of preferences.

But since you got stuck on trauma and then went on with a "I'm just like this" argument, I'm now willing to bet money on it being trauma-related where before I thought it was a silly possibility.